Unequal Justice: A Veteran Attorney Exposes the Flaws in Our Legal System

Moore to Consider (00:01.258)
Welcome to everyone that is in to see Moore to Consider from our very launch of the show. We've talked about a lot of different subjects. I am an attorney. I've been a sports agent. I've worked with kids in major league baseball and, love professional football. And I certainly have a lot of interest in the law. And I've worked as a prosecutor and I've worked as a defense attorney and have a great deal of respect. And I will say, me say this right up front. When I was a prosecutor.

people that I trusted the most to talk to were defense attorney. Honestly, there were so many times in the hallway, they looked out for me, not to give up their client, but they simply were really good people to deal with. It's tough work being a defense attorney. So I have the utmost respect today. I have James Porfido. James is from New Jersey. He is a criminal defense attorney. He's been doing this type of work for 35 years. James, welcome to our show.

James M Porfido (00:55.624)
Thank you, Jack. Thank you. Good morning. Nice to see you.

Moore to Consider (00:59.425)
Yes sir, now tell us a little bit about yourself. You grew up in New Jersey?

James M Porfido (01:03.924)
I did, yes. So my background is that I was born and raised in New Jersey, Morris County. I went to law school at University of Bridgeport in Connecticut, which is now Quinnipiac School of Law. I did my undergrad at Seton Hall University in South Orange, New Jersey. And then I did a clerkship for a Superior Court Judge in 1988. And that was in the area of family law. I got to know a lot of prosecutors that would handle

what they call juvenile delinquency cases when someone under the age of 18 is charged with a crime, it's called an act of juvenile delinquency. And then domestic violence cases, you know, where there's a restraining order issue or perhaps there's a violation of restraining order for someone violating the terms or conditions of the order. So I got to know a lot of the prosecutors and I was interviewing for a job at the time and they said, you should really put in your application over at the prosecutor's office. You would be great with your experience and, you know, the fact that you work for a judge, you kind of know your way around the

courthouse. I did that and I got a job in 1989 with the Morris County Prosecutors Office and I worked there from 1989 to 1997 and I handled a variety of different cases but ultimately I was the head of sex crimes, child abuse and behavioral homicide units and it was a real eye-opener. I dealt with a lot of high-profile cases over the years and it seemed like I was the go-to guy in the office to handle the difficult cases and I kind of had that reputation so I was anxious to get in front of the jury and it's

tell the story about the case. then ultimately there was a case that kind of changed everything. I prosecuted a driver for vehicular homicide and he had killed a woman and I got to know the husband who happened to be an attorney and he was instrumental in getting the laws in New Jersey changed. The vehicular homicide laws were very lax. They used to call death by auto.

And the mandatory sentencing guidelines where you would face 270 days either community service or county jail. And that would be a maximum if you had no prior criminal history. I talked to him about that. He was obviously disgusted to hear that. He said, I'm going to change that. said, you know, by all means, if you have the ability to do that, I said, I just have to deal with what I've got as far as the laws are concerned. And he was instrumental and he had petitions signed throughout the state and ultimately convinced state legislators to change the law.

James M Porfido (03:25.78)
So now in New Jersey, the mandatory sentencing for vehicular homicide, driving drunk, driving recklessly and killing someone is three years mandatory minimum. So now you must face time in state prison. So I got to know him, you know, as an attorney, we had a lot in common. talked.

It's the death of his wife was a traumatic experience and his children were actually in the car as well. He had three children and I got to know him pretty well over the years and he started up a foundation to speak to high school students about the dangers of drinking and driving and drugs and alcohol awareness. And he had started this foundation and he was really moving across the state speaking to lot of high school students and tragically he himself was killed. He was struck by a car while he was jogging one day.

So, yeah, amazing story. Amazing story. So I left the prosecutor's office right after his death in September of 1997, and I took his place on the board and I spoke to high school students. I took his place speaking to high school students, and I spoke to about 75,000 high school students over a couple of years doing presentations out there and speaking to them.

Moore to Consider (04:16.104)
Wow. That's awful. Yeah, that's awful.

James M Porfido (04:42.482)
and about the dangers of drinking and driving and the experience of the case and the law changing and there was a lot to talk about. So then I started defense work. I started my defense practice in 1997. I was with a family firm for a couple years. Then I started my own practice, solo practitioner. I didn't start out as a solo, I had associates, but cost-wise it seemed to make more sense for me to be doing the cases. Then I started to handle a lot of high profile defense cases.

and did trials as a defense attorney. And then I saw that the scales of justice were not truly in balance. The idea of lady justice being blindfolded with the scales of justice being equal, I found that not to be the case. It really was the inspiration for my book and really the cover of the book, which is Unequal Justice, the Search for Truth to Balance the Scales. And if you look at Lady Justice blindfolded, she's actually peeking out from the blindfold.

So, and that's the way I felt that the system was a bit, I don't want to say rigged, because that's not a good word to use, but I felt that there was a predisposition to side with the prosecution or the state. And I felt the judges were aligned with that idea, the concept that, you know, hey, if the state's got a case, if the police charged somebody and they bring their case to court, it must be valid. This person must be guilty. And I had a lot to overcome. You know, that burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt. And I felt that the judges were kind of, you

putting a finger on the scale of it to help the prosecutor and I fought that battle for many many years and I was very passionate about it every time I represented a client I said we've got a pill battle here and we're gonna we're gonna go at it with with the right frame of mind is that we're in a we're in a fight here and we got a fight.

Moore to Consider (06:22.085)
me ask you this, because I think it's a question that a lot of people would ask of any attorney. Do you think, or what do you think in your formative years made you want to go down that road? Why an attorney, and especially why criminal law?

James M Porfido (06:37.669)
You know, it's a great question. in law school, guess you have a whole, you know, like people say, you're a lawyer and people don't really realize that specialized kind of like medicine, do specialties, you know, you can be a tax attorney, you could be a real estate attorney, you can be an estate planning attorney, you can be a, you know, there's so many different avenues available. You can be a sports agent, you know, I even tried to do that myself. So I credit you for that. took the NFL.

Moore to Consider (06:47.713)
Absolutely.

Moore to Consider (07:01.57)
Yep. It's an ugly business.

James M Porfido (07:04.144)
Yeah, I took the NFL Players agent exam. I went to DC and took that. I took the course. It was a bit of daunting experience. I thought I wanted to do it after watching Jerry Maguire. I thought that was my call to action. you know, I just, I don't know, in my heart, I think I always...

fought for the underdog. always felt like, you know, and I always felt like a storyteller, like there's always the ability to tell a story. I felt that was what I didn't view an attorney so much as being an attorney as being an attorney slash actor, you know, because you, because yeah. So you had.

Moore to Consider (07:41.957)
absolutely. The best ones are. Yeah, the best ones are. Yeah.

James M Porfido (07:45.934)
Yeah, and I felt like you had to have a presence in front of a jury. You had to be able to relate to them, have them relate to you and be comfortable with you and have you tell a story. know, like you're talking to 12 strangers and they don't know you, but you want them to believe you and say, hey, this guy's not gonna lie. This guy's, you know, he's the real deal. And if I got in trouble, that's the guy I want. Yeah.

Moore to Consider (08:08.387)
That's right. That's right. Well, and, you know, something that was told to me, I had a victim in a case. also did domestic violence prosecution. And the best advice I ever got was I had a woman straight out of prison who had had her jaw broken by her husband. And what the defense attorney is trying to lie and wait to say like, Hey, he wants to get into evidence in front of the jury. The fact that she just got out of prison and she was involved in drug trade, which was true. She still got her jaw broken. So.

The best advice I ever got as a young attorney, you know, going into a jury trial was when you're in voir dire and you're talking to the jury, say, if I were to tell you that this person has this background, could you be fair in the judgment of it? Don't let it spring in court because if you'll say, or if you have a criminal defendant and say, he's not going to have the best history, can you sit in judgment and be fair and impartial? Let him know what's bad. So it doesn't come out.

court because if you ever get your pants pulled down in court and it's like, you never told me about that part of this story. Then you've lost all credibility. You have no way to recover. I want to say this too. I want to ask you about your experiences. When I was a prosecutor in a city in Virginia beach, this really scared me. Got a young lady at the city I'm in that is not exactly a ball of fire in court. Nice lady, but not exactly a ball of ball of fire. She gets brought over as a special prosecutor in other cities. They're conflicted out for some reason they can't prosecute.

James M Porfido (09:10.327)
Right, right.

Moore to Consider (09:34.849)
It is a sex crime. I imagine it had to be something in the neighborhood of rape because it involves consent and it involves something to do with a sexual assault. But she said she goes in there and she's like, you know, I don't really like the facts here enough, but I feel comfortable enough to go forward with the prosecution. So she goes, I do the case. They find the guy guilty max time. And she goes, I'm shocked because I'm thinking it's kind of a coin flip case and they're giving a max time.

So in that moment, when they're leaving the jury, when they're leaving the jury room, she gets that chance to kind of like, Hey, you saw me in court. You you can't, you know, you, you, you can't come down on them or ask them uncomfortable questions, but she's like, what can I do better in court? What moved you the most in entering your verdict? And the first female said, yeah, that defense attorney wore those that belt with those shoes. And she wore that color of nail polish. And they went into a tirade.

or three of them in the hallway, how they didn't like the defense attorney. They mentioned nothing. This is a true story. They never mentioned anything about the facts. So this male had a female defense attorney and these females coming out of the jury were nitpicking her clothing and how she carried herself. And they max time this guy with the jury verdict of guilty. You ever had any experiences like that with the jury where you're not quite sure where they're coming from?

James M Porfido (10:41.501)
I believe.

James M Porfido (11:02.886)
Yeah, that's interesting. You know, I've had feedback from juries after a trial and some of them actually approached me and talked to me and commended me for doing a good job and they were grateful that I was on their side, so to speak, and that was always another thing, you know.

The taxpayers are paying you, so the jury's like, you you want to connect with them because, they're paying your salary. So, yeah, I did have that experience a couple times where they said, you know, we like the way you carried yourself in the courtroom. You were very confident, very sure, and that carried over to us. And I guess the biggest compliment I ever got was a case where actually my client was found guilty of a gun charge and he ended up getting some time.

He had no prior from a history of real big backstory on the case.

But they found him not guilty of 11 out of 12 counts, but the one count they found him guilty of was he had improperly carried this gun to the contractor site who had been beating him up, know, wasn't doing the job. And there's a lot involved in this case, but he ultimately brought a gun over there and the guy had a really bad history, this contractor. So long story short, one of the jurors contacted me after the case was over and said, I need you to represent my husband.

He's got a little bit of trouble and I think you're the guy to help him. And I said, and she said, and I said, what happened on that case? know, why did you find, she said, we had to find him guilty because he had no reason to bring the gun over to the house. She said, but everything else, we didn't believe a damn thing coming from the state side. She said the prosecutor's case was weak, you know.

James M Porfido (12:43.138)
And the guy that was the quote unquote victim was not a likable guy. was a bad contractor who had beaten people out of money for years. And he had a long criminal history and domestic violence background with his former spouse. So she said, we really wanted to find your client not guilty of everything, but there was one attorney who kept him on. You probably shouldn't have kept him on the jury. And she said he was a former US attorney. And he said, well,

the state did prove this charge, so we gotta find him guilty of this. And she said, if it hadn't been for him, we probably would have found him not guilty of everything.

Moore to Consider (13:19.131)
Well, the reason I bring up that case about the colleague that goes to this other city, the fact that a jury could sit in judgment of a person, and I don't know what the facts are. It's scary, right? And, you know, and we mentioned off the air coming in the Kennedy assassination case, that I wrote a master's thesis on and discuss a lot. One of the points I'd make in my criminal justice classes is I was in Richmond, Virginia one night waiting on a friend to come to a movie theater.

James M Porfido (13:29.418)
It's sad. It's scary. Scary.

Moore to Consider (13:47.599)
And I heard a pop in the theater. I'm standing outside and I'm like, that's a pistol shot. And I see this kid go running by me and I went, kids running right by me four feet away. Then I hear another shot and I realized the kid's chasing him. And the point I'd make to the class is when you look at the people that were material eyewitnesses on the JFK assassination, they're looking at the president and they're looking at the first lady. They're not expecting it to come. And if the cops had approached me in my personal where the kid ran right by me firing,

If you had asked me how many shots were fired, I'd say at least two, because I remember the first sound and at least one more. How many total? I don't know. What was the timing? I don't know. Could I have pulled those two kids out of a lineup? Absolutely not. I wouldn't have known either one of them because your mind just kind of goes blank and you're like, am I really witnessing a shooting? I make that point to say, I believe most people think that eyewitness testimony really has some validity, but you would probably agree with me.

It's little to none. There's some,

James M Porfido (14:48.941)
It's certainly subject to challenge and credibility comes into play and I can tell you in more cases than I've handled, in so many cases really. And I just read a book, I'm not here to plug someone else's book.

John Grisham wrote a book very different than most of his books. He wrote it with a guy by the name of Jim McCluskey who was involved with, I forget what the name of the project is, not Project Innocence, but another like Innocence Project. And they wrote a book and each one of them had to put five stories of cases that people have wrongfully been convicted. And there were a number of cases in there where people were tried, convicted by a jury and sentenced

based on eyewitness testimony that was clearly faulty and the prosecution knew it. And this is like this ride to a different level where it was prosecutorial misconduct where they were engaged in a coverup.

Moore to Consider (15:37.068)
Yes.

James M Porfido (15:43.628)
You know, they knew this person had questions regarding, and then there was also deals being made back door deals where they were, you know, jailhouse snitches coming forward. if you give me a deal, I can tell you that. And this guy said, and they never said that, you know, and, people were convicted based on this testimony. And I'm saying there was some bad lawyering going on here. These guys, these women, they didn't have good defense and they spent a lot of time in jail. I mean, that book really was upsetting to me to read the stories. And one guy was actually executed in the state.

Moore to Consider (16:13.155)
man.

James M Porfido (16:13.581)
it.

And I believe it was in Texas. And here's the allegations is that he burned his house down with his three children in the house. And they used an arson expert who had little to no experience, did like a 48 hour course and came to court. And you know, everything was a suspicious fire in his opinion. was all, you know, his in the early devices and somebody set the fire and he said this guy set the fire and he clearly did not. And later on he was escalated, but it was too late. He was executed.

Moore to Consider (16:27.894)
Yeah.

Moore to Consider (16:44.139)
Wow. Yeah, that's the fearful thing. And I will say this too. I remember when I was in my third year of law school and I did this third year special prosecutor at a Commonwealth attorney's office in Virginia, the largest city actually. I remember hearing a young lady around lunchtime. We're all sitting around a lunchroom and it scared the hell out of me. And I remember having this conversation with one of my law professors right after it.

James M Porfido (16:45.252)
Yeah.

Moore to Consider (17:12.414)
She said, I had a case this morning that was kind of weak, but I didn't mind going forward on it because well, he's kind of one of those. If he didn't do this, he probably did something else anyway. And I'm like, the blood runs cold. And I'm not trying to say I was perfect. My father was in law enforcement. And my father said that one of the first thing to happen, he was first in his class in state police and said he went in one time and he didn't prove venue. He didn't say exactly where it happened in the city of Richmond or whatever. And he kind of got nailed.

James M Porfido (17:23.625)
Hmm.

Moore to Consider (17:40.533)
And he said, I left the courtroom that day saying, I'm either going to do a better job at the presentation of the evidence, or I'm going to get it handed to me, but I'm not going to go bad. And my father was a very virtuous guy. was a good man. And as a matter of the Loving versus Virginia biracial marriage case that everybody that's the County that I'm from. My father defeated the sheriff that arrested him. He was a trooper at the time. He later goes on to serve 28 years and seven terms, but he always taught me.

James M Porfido (17:57.919)
Yes.

Moore to Consider (18:09.201)
everybody I arrest, they're a person too, they bear the image of God, they're all people. He got a lot of information from the jail too, to be honest with you. If a jailer was being mean to one of the inmates, he would let everybody come in free to talk to him about whatever's going on. He got a lot of inside information that way. But what I'm saying is, was, again, I'd say I'm Joe virtuous, but I was raised on or reared on.

Be fair to everybody. So when I hear a prosecutor say, if he didn't do this, he probably did something else. Therefore it justifies weak evidence. That's scary one.

James M Porfido (18:45.5)
Yeah, that's a tough pill to swallow. I always felt, you know, as a prosecutor, I had a responsibility of duty and my objectives always were seek justice. You know, that's what every prosecutor should be doing. And if you're going forward with a case that doesn't have the evidence to support the charges, you have no business. And that really became, quite frankly, a big issue later on in my career. You know, the more

Moore to Consider (18:58.013)
Right.

James M Porfido (19:12.581)
senior I got, let's say, in the years of experience, found that prosecutors were very inexperienced. And I have a lot of respect, you know, because that's how I started out. That's how I started my career. So, but some of them were just...

really brazen and bold about it and they would just come to court and your client's going to do five years of state prison. And I go, what are you talking about? Have you looked at this file? What evidence do you have? Have you really reviewed the file? Do you know that there's faulty evidence? Do you know this issue, that issue? And they would have no idea. They would just come to court with a file and tell you what the security's told them. That's the deal. And I'd be like, no, that's not how it's going to go. I'm sorry. I don't agree at all. I don't think you can prove your case.

Moore to Consider (19:55.57)
Well, don't you think a lot of that is when someone's young, and I'm not saying this is an American problem necessarily, kind of how our culture works, but we are, I would think you would agree, sort of, not only, or not maybe so much a win at all cost, but we count wins and losses. And I think a lot of young prosecutors think if they went to court with a hundred cases and they did justice in 99.9, they did the best job. But some of those resulted in

James M Porfido (19:55.89)
And then.

Moore to Consider (20:24.559)
dismissals, acquittals, whatever, that they would feel they lost. And I think they feel like to keep the gig, to keep the job and to look like to the top brass, they're doing their job. They got to come back with victories all the time, even if at whatever cost. Do you not think that's a big problem part of it?

James M Porfido (20:41.747)
it is, it is, definitely, because when you'd say you're gonna have to dismiss this case because you got the wrong person or something, you'd think you had five heads. They'd look at you like, are you crazy? And they would just push forward and you'd say, I'm gonna convince you that you don't have the case. And then what happened was the burden of proof shifted over to the defense. So you're trying to prove your clients.

Moore to Consider (20:53.231)
Wow.

James M Porfido (21:05.627)
innocent, not guilty, versus them proving your client's guilty. So the scales of justice were truly not balanced, clearly.

Moore to Consider (21:13.07)
Well, and you know that when you say that, and I know you probably have felt the same frustration just in the general public, we're legally trained. We're not trying to stump the chump and taro. They don't know what they're talking about. But one of the things I did in criminal justice all the time, as I'd say, one of the things that we hear often in the news or just kind of in in pop culture is guilt or innocence. I'm like, it's never guilt or innocence. It's whether the person can be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

They could have done it. I mean, the done it, they could have done it, but that's not what you're not trying to prove ever anyone innocent. The defendant, this is all cliche, but true bears no burden to prove anything. And nobody really gets that. They're like, well, you know, I never really thought he was innocent. I don't care if he thought he was innocent. The question is, are you convinced beyond a reasonable doubt? What does that in, I used to do the football field in class. I'm like, okay, we got a football field and we got a burden of proof.

James M Porfido (21:55.496)
That's correct. That's correct.

Moore to Consider (22:11.631)
How far does the football have to be pushed? And one kid said, a hundred yards. I said, well, that would be beyond any doubt. So clearly that's not it. Where does the football begin? And they're like, around the 50. I'm like, no, it starts at the goal line. There's a presumption of innocence. So we presume innocence. And now the prosecution has to push the little football up the field. And when they get it to a point along the field that you feel beyond a reasonable doubt to a moral certainty, and you can live with that verdict, it's there. Proponderance is one side or the other of the 50 yard line.

James M Porfido (22:18.951)
Right.

Moore to Consider (22:40.973)
I try to give them that concept, but make them understand the state merely, there is a probable cause that's already been established. would accept it, whether it's been through preliminary hearing or through the arrest as a probable cause. So there's some assumption that there's something here, but the state must then walk through each of these different. I put a little football for each one of the elements. You prove this element, you prove you can have a failure of a certain element and maybe it's a lesser included, but

You get them to understand that nothing's proven just because the state walks through the doors. That person's right, and they don't have to prove they're innocent. And I think people really struggle with that. I think they really struggle with just being charged doesn't mean anything.

James M Porfido (23:12.968)
That's correct.

James M Porfido (23:22.568)
Right, absolutely, because it's probable cause is such a low standard of threshold. Probably an individual committed the crime and it's probably that person. Now, you know, probably it's not a very high threshold and then you get to beyond reasonable doubt, which is a much higher level. And I always look at my job as being an effective defense attorney as I really have to go back to my days as a prosecutor. What evidence would I need to prove this case?

Moore to Consider (23:26.092)
Yes.

Moore to Consider (23:48.429)
That's right.

James M Porfido (23:48.838)
And that's why I would look at it. I would evaluate it on that level and I'd say, well, where are they missing proofs? What was done wrong? Procedurally, what was done wrong was to search improperly.

Moore to Consider (23:59.703)
Yes.

James M Porfido (23:59.771)
Did they take a statement without advising this person of their constitutional rights? There's a lot of issues that need to be looked at. And unfortunately, really unfortunately, I find that a lot of defense attorneys really don't take that time or that effort, or maybe they don't have that experience or background to do that. And they're really doing a tremendous disservice to their clients when they do that.

Moore to Consider (24:21.718)
Now we're talking generally about law, so anyone watching this, we're not giving legal advice, but if there's young lawyers out there or anyone that's thinking about studying the law, the greatest advice I ever got as an intern, as a prosecutor's office, is a gentleman, went on to be a judge, he really kind of took me under his wing, he said, look up every case and what Virginia has is the model jury instructions. Greatest advice I ever got. Because I would look at the statute, I would look at the code section in Virginia.

Someone's been charged with 18.2, that's a criminal code dash whatever. You would go to the index, you'd find the model jury instruction and it's written for the person sitting in the jury box. The person has been charged with X, this must be proven one, you know, they were present, whatever level of intent, instrument was involved, whatever. And when you read it, you're like, okay, what am I gonna do as a prosecutor? Even if it's a case in our general district court, our lower court, and I'm doing a misdemeanor trial.

My mindset is still, I want to prove the elements, prove the jurisdiction of the court, prove the venue had happened in this city or county. But when your mind begins to work that way as a prosecutor, you're painted defense attorney. It's even more important. Cause like you said, you're going through ticking off each one and the prosecution often, and I got that a lot with police officers. I'm sure you as well. They get some things if it's just an officer by himself.

but they often don't testify to where it happened. They often don't testify to what the jurisdiction of the court is. They kind of get caught up in the facts, they don't, they miss a necessary element. I hate to say it, but probably 60 % of the dismissals I ever got was a failure of an element that was very clear. They just didn't testify to it. I'm sure you've had that same experience.

James M Porfido (26:01.247)
Well, I always took the time to prep the witnesses like a police officer because you probably experienced the same thing is that they would always say, well, I'm, you know, they had this attitude like, well, I've been in court a thousand times. I've testified a thousand times and I'd say, well, how many times have you been in front of a jury? And I'd say, never. I'd say, well, you you testify in your local court in front of your local judge with your local prosecutor.

Moore to Consider (26:14.686)
Yes, yes.

James M Porfido (26:28.391)
How do you think that's gonna go? said, know, that is pretty much a, you know, that system's a bit rigged in your favor, you know? You're testifying on a speeding case maybe, or a failure to stop at a stop sign, something like that. That's not as meaty as a homicide case or a rape case. You know, so you gotta spend the time to go and say,

Moore to Consider (26:35.197)
Yes, yes.

James M Porfido (26:52.292)
I know this sounds stupid, but we're going to have to go through each and every element and aspect of what the charges are when I talk to you, because you're going to be part of the state's presentation of evidence. You're going to be one of several witnesses, but we need to cover the bases.

Moore to Consider (27:06.354)
Yeah, and when I would teach criminal justice classes too, I'd have some law enforcement types in there or kids getting ready to go to the academy. And be honest with you, I was teaching a community college criminal justice program, but I didn't know any other way to teach other than the law school and my own experiences. And I'd have officers come back later. I'm like, you know that trick you said the defense attorney was going to try to play on me? It happened in court and I was ready for it. Cause I would explain to them the pitfalls of not being prepared for this question.

You may get this question, they'll tie you a knot. You lose, especially in front of a jury, you you lose that credibility for a moment. Let me ask you about, let's go down another road. I'm sure you have a lot of, of knowledge and you remember it because it's one of the scariest things I've seen. The Duke lacrosse case. I watched one of these kids and one of these documentaries that went on to work with the project, Innocence or Innocence Project. He was so moved and it was some New England kids. My, my memory was it had gone to play.

James M Porfido (27:40.688)
Sure.

James M Porfido (27:51.683)
James M Porfido (27:56.846)
Right? Right?

Moore to Consider (28:02.587)
you know, lacrosse and Duke. And the scary thing is, and anybody can look up the facts on this, the prosecutor literally had evidence that one of the three kids charged was at an ATM at the exact same time that this was supposed to be occurring and did not release it. And attorneys know this kind of Brady versus Maryland, 1963 case that says, if you have exculpatory evidence, evidence that would either mitigate or prove innocence of someone, it has to be delivered.

When this guy was asked who goes on to get criminal time, I believe, and was in fact disbarred, he admitted to people, hey, I had a reelection coming up. was a very racially charged case. And I just let it slide. The fact that I had absolute knowledge that a young man could not have been at the scene. And of course the whole thing unravels. It's not even a true story. And I think she picked them out of a pretty much like a yearbook. It was 40 pictures and she just started picking, picking faces.

So we know that story, but how scary is to that to you as an attorney or just an American that somebody could use the law so politically as to ruin the lives of three young kids?

James M Porfido (29:16.662)
Yeah, I actually have some familiarity with that case. It was contacted by one of the families to represent their son. And at the time I was just out of the prosecutor's office and had gotten a call. And I actually taught witness testimony to police officers in the academy when I was a prosecutor. So I have some familiarity with that as well.

Moore to Consider (29:21.359)
Okay?

James M Porfido (29:39.685)
I didn't take the case. don't know what the reason was that I didn't, you know, it it may have been I had to be admitted in that state Pro Hablice, which is you had to have somebody certify and there was a bit of a complication and I ultimately told the family you'll be better served by a local council and you really should get somebody really good and seasoned and I'm happy to discuss with you their background experience things like that if you want me to even be part of the process I'll help you. So

I remember the case and I remember the DA failing to disclose this exculpatory evidence that clearly negated the guilt of these kids. then now, you know, recent events is that this woman who was a prostitute at the time has now been sentenced for a murder and she's admitted that the whole thing was fabricated.

Moore to Consider (30:14.692)
Yeah.

Moore to Consider (30:24.58)
That's right. That's right.

Absolutely.

James M Porfido (30:30.18)
And she literally ruined the lives of think 10 of these young guys at the time that were fraternity brothers. it's just...

Moore to Consider (30:40.067)
They lost the program. think the lacrosse program was shut down that year over this. Not that that's the most important thing, but a lot of other kids came to school to play lacrosse. And I like losing the whole program.

James M Porfido (30:45.43)
Yeah. No, no.

Sure, sure. it was just...

amazing that there was so much cover-up and it was really racially divided. hate to say that that race played into us, but it did. That, know, here you had these rich white kids, we're going to make an example of them and, you know, we're going to show them that they're quote-unquote not above the law, you know, and we're going to believe this person despite their background, their history, and she clearly had a history and they were aware of that.

Moore to Consider (30:59.34)
Yeah, it was.

James M Porfido (31:21.156)
And that was one of the issues in the case, frankly, is that she had some tarnished credibility, not because of the profession that she engaged in, but she had a criminal background on top of it. So look, it's crazy what can push a case forward. I've seen all kinds of crazy situations happen where cases move and the direction they go. I talk about them in live book, actually.

Moore to Consider (31:43.628)
Let me add, okay, and that's where I kind of want to go. I want to go, you're an attorney. I feel like I have a really good sense of where your heart is and why you do what you do. And I certainly had a sense of why I did. And we can sound like I say that we're on the right side of issue, which I think we are, but how do we get reform? How do we get to the point that this is what we're really after? I think some of it is just civics being taught in school.

James M Porfido (32:04.772)
Good.

Moore to Consider (32:10.753)
Because if kids are coming out 18 years of age and they really have no sense of our federal government, state governments, or what the courts are supposed to do, other than what they, well, I would say they saw on MatLock, but that's outdated or whatever they're watching. But how do we get, yeah, that's right, right, under, yeah, under a little bit different, that's right.

James M Porfido (32:22.881)
Yeah. Well, it's back on again. It's back on. Kathy Bates is now, Kathy Bates is not longer. It's not Andy Griffiths.

Moore to Consider (32:32.971)
Not Andy anymore. Loved Andy. so let me, so, that kind of thing. and certainly the message we're talking about, Andy Griffith, the message were different, the sheriff without a gun and, you know, rule North Carolina that was always being the nice guy, but taught Opie a sense of justice. And we had those kinds of images and messages. So what do you think about how do we change? We are clearly off the tracks. I think in the last five years, we've all seen some craziness that

James M Porfido (32:36.087)
Yeah.

Moore to Consider (33:01.376)
we thought we'd never see. But are we kind of steering the whole country back maybe to a better sense of justice? So where do we go? How do we get there?

James M Porfido (33:03.949)
Yeah.

James M Porfido (33:10.881)
Well, I like to believe in Al.

This might be divisive to say this, that we've got a new sheriff in town and there's a new order of business, but I've seen the politic, the politicization of the Department of Justice. I've seen, you know, some cases with these, these, I'll say politically appointed DAs going after people prosecuting cases that really shouldn't be prosecuted. And I have some real strong opinions about those. Like, I don't know if you're familiar with the Daniel Penny case that happened out in New York where

Moore to Consider (33:41.375)
That's, brother, that scared the hell out of me. That that could even, that he could even be facing that really scared the hell out of me.

James M Porfido (33:44.148)
Yeah, here's a good one.

That's right. It really was unbelievable in my view that a good Samaritan who interceded to help subway passengers could be charged, number one. Number two, viewed as being guilty of a murder and then go to trial and then have the judge try to step in and put his finger on the scale. The judge actually tried to have him found guilty. The judge stepped in.

Moore to Consider (33:53.203)
Yes.

Moore to Consider (34:12.5)
No doubt.

James M Porfido (34:14.346)
I mean, my blood boils when I see some of this stuff go on from my years of experience as an attorney, former prosecutor. I look at the way the system is working and I say, it's not working. It's not fair. Like you got to get this politics out of the courtroom.

And it happens every day. And I don't know how you do it. I really don't. Because, you know, if you're appointed by one judge, one president to the Supreme Court versus another president, although we've seen with the Supreme Court some of their rulings, it certainly went a different way than was expected, know, surprisingly.

But, you know, that's part of the problem is there's politics in the courtroom. And I talk about that a little bit too, in terms of the administrations of the office and, you know, what's politically correct at that particular time. I talk about the appointment of prosecutors. I talk about inexperienced, appointment of judges and inexperienced prosecutors and having to deal with them and, you know, trying not to come across like,

with an ego. I just don't think I have an ego, I'm pretty humble guy. And I always try to view each experience as a learning experience, not just for me, but for them as well. And we're in this together, this system. So we have to work together and part of my job is to not only educate my client, but it might be to educate a prosecutor too.

Moore to Consider (35:41.786)
I think we have to look deep inside of ourselves and this is going to be a provocative thing to say too. But I do believe that there are a number of Americans that could have looked at the exact same circumstances in the city of New York. And if the man that was a lighter shade of skin tone had had the same thing happened to him by former Marine that was a black man. I think 90 % of America would have looked at that and said it was justified and would not have even questioned the racial component of it. And I think that's

A lot of where we struggle with this is he had a black man, Penny had a black man in assistance right beside him that I believe tried to hide because he didn't really get pulled into all this. There were women on the scene of all of God's rainbow of colors thanking him for their safety. And when it becomes a political thing to the degree or it becomes a racial thing and we can't see, and this young man and the demons that he was battling.

I hate to see anyone die in that situation, but he's on a subway. Then it's the question of all the failures of the city of New York and everyone else involved that he has the mental health issues he has. He has the criminal history he has. And what the hell is he doing on the subway harassing people? Why is this happening? So a man steps up. It seems to be, I mean, what's in it for him other than the protection of others, because he felt as a duty as a Marine, he said as a Marine, we were trained.

to protect the least among us, the least capable of protecting themselves. It's kind of hard to hear the guy and not say it seemed like his motivations were of, you know, the great virtuous. He certainly seemed to be concerned about the safety of others. And to turn that into, you know, Devilify this guy and potentially lose his freedom over it, it's pretty scary, you know? And I don't know what the answer is either.

But I do think, like I said, I go back to what kids learn. If we learn everything is race-based or it's sex-based or it's whatever-based and the only thing we seek in justice is some outcome based upon some dimension, then, and it's not just purely justice. It's pretty scary. Maybe.

James M Porfido (37:50.262)
It is absolutely and those those really should not factor in because you know, juries are told to leave your passions at the door, you know your opinions at the door. Just listen to what the evidence is and apply the law to the evidence and that's not what's happening because people are predisposed like I was saying before, know, judges are predisposed to want to believe a prosecutor that this is a justified prostitution. You know, I had people sitting in jail waiting for the day in court and you know,

Moore to Consider (37:55.555)
No!

James M Porfido (38:18.363)
Clearly there were problems in the case, there were issues in the case, and every time you tried to address this on some level, you were just like, it was like you were, I don't want to say peeing in the wind, but that's exactly what you were doing, you know?

Moore to Consider (38:32.568)
No, I saw the bias in judges sometimes that I thought was almost at a ridiculous level. Some, you know, they weren't the worst person when I was, I was down in Hampton Roads, Virginia Beach, Norfolk, Portsmouth, that area of Virginia, which is a pretty heavily populated area. But the bias that these judges carry, and again, I'm sure they're good people. But what I think you might agree with me on this too. I used to notice that some former prosecutors, including what our district attorneys are called Commonwealth attorneys,

I would see some former Commonwealth attorneys that were extremely, I wouldn't say lenient to defendants, but they were more than fair. And I used to see some defense attorneys make the bench and they would rip every defendant they could. And I had a friend that was one of those. And I asked him one time, he said, man, I used to defend some of the grimmiest people on earth. If I can get a shot at him now. But he admitted that to me.

James M Porfido (39:26.726)
Hmm.

Moore to Consider (39:27.201)
He said, now that I'm on the bench, I feel like I can kind of get back at some of these people, although they paid his salary in a sense. And that's what they did. And I think some prosecutors bend over backwards to not be seen as well. He's a former prosecutor. He's pro police. However, I did see a lot of former prosecutors. They weren't hearing anything, but what the police officer said, I don't care what you said or what defense you had. They're only hearing one thing. And it bothered me because I could really say.

This is my experience. have a much greater experience on this, but I would say I thought one in 10 judges was really, really, really fair and balanced. I thought the other nine out of 10, whichever way their bias went, were heavily biased. And you had to kind of know that, you know that you'd, you'd be in there. I had a young lady. One time I argued a first defense and set a second offense DUI based upon whether or not they brought a certified copy of the prior conviction. And I got the one judge that listened.

And it reduced her suspension from three years to one year and got her out of 30 days in jail down to three. Was I doing the greatest thing on earth? I don't know, but it saved her career because she would have lost her job, everything. But we were in a courtroom and we got moved to another courtroom and I'm in the hallway and the father said, is this going to be better? And I said, if I was, if I were to argue and I'm getting ready to argue the second judge, he to put me in jail, that guy would have put me in jail. Anything's better.

I swear to you, I'm walking in the hall saying, please be this guy, please. I come through the door, it's him. And it was the only fair judge in that, at a 10. And I walked up and he called me Jack from the bench. He goes, Jack, what you got? You got a not guilty, guilty or some hybrid thereof. And I'm like, well, you know me, your honor, I got a hybrid. He goes, do you do? I go, yeah, we're going to plead guilty to the one offense, but not the second. Based upon, I said, I have to hear the evidence. Top gave it boom, boom, boom. I said, here's a case. He goes, come back in a week. He said, I think you're right.

James M Porfido (40:58.742)
Hmm.

Moore to Consider (41:22.724)
And he reduced it to a first offense, not a second. To say that story, there's not another, this is what was frustrating. And I know you've had the same frustration. There wasn't one other attorney among that bank of 10 attorneys at that level that would have listened to that. I caught the only one that would. And if I fail at general district in our system, you have 10 days to appeal to the circuit and get another trial. Well, they're going to clean it up. They're going to come with a certified copy the second time. The very thing I argued they failed to bring, they're going to show up with.

James M Porfido (41:50.948)
Sure. Right.

Moore to Consider (41:52.711)
And it'd probably bring a prosecutor too. But what was frustrating to me in that environment is how do you tell? And I don't know. Maybe I said too much to him, but I'd say to the clients sometimes they'll say, what's going to happen? And I'd say, well, you're going to get anyone from this to this. I'm going to go to jail. And it's like, you asked me what could happen. What's really going to happen depends on what judge we get. What do you mean? Don't you know the law? And I'm like, I really depends on the judge. There are judges. If I make this argument on your behalf, they'll throw me in jail for making the argument.

There were some really, really overbearing judges in our system that they didn't want to hear it. Cops said that, you're guilty. Did you have those kind of experiences too?

James M Porfido (42:32.085)
Absolutely, positively. you know, when you do what we call it municipal court, lower court cases, then the cases, the charges are elevated to crimes and then they go to superior court. Whenever you had like a lower court municipal court case and people were charged with like a DWI or traffic related offense, they'd say, I want to go to trial. want to go, like they come in, you know, to retain you and they're all pissing vinegar. I want to stay in court.

Moore to Consider (42:38.877)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

James M Porfido (43:00.947)
I say, you got to be careful what you wish for because, know, I'm just going to lay it out for you very clearly. Okay. Let's talk about this practically speaking. Who pays the judge? Who pays the prosecutor and who pays the police? It's the same municipality. Do you think that this is going to go your way? Now I could be F. Lee Bailey. I could do the best job as an attorney. And I've said many times, I've never lost a case, but the judge found otherwise, you know,

And I'd say to people, you're not going to get what you want. We need to negotiate. We can go to trial, but I can almost guarantee you that we'll have a good enough record to go appeal it to the appellate to the superior court level for a superior court judge to review it on a trial de novo basis, which means basically all new. Start all over. I said we can do that, but it's going to be very expensive. If you're, if you're in for that and you're up for that, then let's go forward.

Moore to Consider (43:49.969)
Start all over.

James M Porfido (43:59.748)
And as long as they have that understanding, then I'll do my job. I'll fight the fight and I'll keep fighting the fight for them. And I've had those cases where ultimately they're found not guilty after being found guilty on one occasion or whatever in appealing the decision. So I agree, you gotta know your audience. You gotta know where you're going. And some judges, you're just not gonna convince no matter how hard you try.

Moore to Consider (44:27.867)
So in Virginia, we have a general district court. It handles, some people call it small claims court. It's not, but it's a court of a certain jurisdiction when it comes to civil and it's where the misdemeanor trials are and it's where preliminary hearings on felonies. And then we go to circuit court, then there's a court of appeals and the Supreme court in Virginia. All of our judges are appointed by the general assembly. Are yours elected in New Jersey by the people, by the voters, or is it also through the state legislature?

James M Porfido (44:57.332)
No, no, see, it's different state by state. And that's something I talk about because I was up for a county DA appointment, prosecutor's appointment as the head DA. was up two times and it's a gubernatorial or a governor's appointment. So the governor appoints the head prosecutor, the governor appoints judges. So it's done through the political process. know, the judges and the prosecutors are appointed by the governor when their term is up.

Moore to Consider (45:16.366)
Okay. okay.

James M Porfido (45:26.76)
Your term happens to be up and there's a governor that's either Republican or Democrat. You can be assured that whoever takes their place is going to be Republican or Democrat based on the political affiliations.

Moore to Consider (45:36.494)
So they clean house every time the governor goes out?

James M Porfido (45:41.136)
No, no, it's like there'll be open appointments available. But if your term expires as a prosecutor, you have a five year term, if your term is expiring while that governor is there, the governor will remove you and put in somebody else.

Moore to Consider (45:46.486)
Okay, okay.

Moore to Consider (45:52.343)
I got you.

Moore to Consider (45:59.566)
I gotcha, I see what you're saying. Yeah. In Virginia, our judges serve for six years and then they come up for a reappointment and it's a general assembly thing. So it does swing. And I hate to say this too, and I don't know who's going to see this, but I had a very seasoned attorney I worked with in the last firm I was with. And I would come back from court sometimes and I'd be like, what the hell did I just see in court today? you don't know that person? Like.

James M Porfido (46:01.085)
Yeah.

Moore to Consider (46:23.457)
Well, their friends were so-and-so and then their friends were so-and-so. And you know, the lieutenant governor? Yeah, well, they went to law school. like two weeks earlier, I've seen the people like they were tripping over their briefcase in court. Then they're on the bench two weeks later. And I'm not trying to play, you know, like I was some kind of special attorney, but I would see somebody I wasn't heavily impressed with. And two weeks later, they're on the bench. And then when I talked to my friend, like, you don't know the connection this to this to this to that member of the General Assembly.

James M Porfido (46:36.454)
MWAH!

Moore to Consider (46:51.836)
And I hate to say it, it always seemed like a bunch of political hacks, like truly political hacks.

James M Porfido (46:56.967)
Yeah, definitely. I I can't tell you how many I talk about that in my book, actually, in cases that I handled. You know, I don't name anybody. I don't name any process. I don't name any defense attorneys on purpose. But I can't tell you how many examples in those cases where I may have beaten someone and they ultimately get onto the bench and then I have to appear in front of them. And how do think that's going to go? You know, do you think they're not going to remember that experience or they're, know, so

Moore to Consider (47:05.236)
Right,

James M Porfido (47:26.931)
They can't separate that. can't. So imagine you're in front of a judge that you previously have beaten them to cases and now you're in front of them and they have the ropes and you're in their courtroom and they certainly want to remind you that you're in their courtroom now. Things have changed. So that does happen quite a bit and I know exactly what you're saying. I I've appeared in front of judges in the criminal section where I practiced.

in practice and they never handle a criminal case ever. They're appointed to the bench and you're going in there with 30 plus years of experience and trying to say, Judge, that's not really what happens. That's not right. And they're looking at you like, well, that's the way it's going to be.

Moore to Consider (48:01.579)
Yes.

Moore to Consider (48:14.196)
Yes. Yeah, I've seen that. No doubt.

James M Porfido (48:16.114)
And you're just trying to say, but that's not correct. That's not, I'm just telling you from my experience, the law does not say that. well, that's the way I view it, you know? And it's like, I must have five heads because they just rewrote the law from the bench just now.

Moore to Consider (48:36.682)
Well, as we opened and you had said, and it's so true, we go through law school, and I remember in Virginia, we were tested on 27 subjects on the bar. You know, and I used to have friends say like, well, what does that mean? I'm like, well, about 21 of them, I'll probably never see in my career, nor do I care to, but you still get tested on it. And you have some kind of general sense of where it's gonna go, and then you get a bunch of exam questions that could take you down any one of those, and you have to be tested on it. But if once you get into the narrow field, you're right, some of the craziest cases I had.

James M Porfido (48:52.017)
Sure.

Moore to Consider (49:05.99)
in criminal court in this particular city. I'd come back to that same attorney and I'm like, what the heck is up? she was a real estate attorney. He or she, let's put that way. No, but it was like that. And I was like, this judge had no idea about the fourth amendment. This judge had, yeah, yeah, yeah. 30 years of doing real estate. And she's just picking stuff out of a hat saying whatever she thinks it should be. And, and now on the flip side, I got a buddy of mine I dearly love. It's one of my closest friends. We prosecute together.

So I go back to teaching coach baseball, I've been coaching college baseball for years, and he calls me one day, and know, 10 years had passed since we prosecuted together, and he goes, hey, now on a landlord tenant, they have how many days if they appear in court before they can be, before you can file the paper to expel them and to remove them from the property? I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? He goes, you didn't know? I said, wait, goes, I'm a general district court judge now. I'm like, you just made judge?

So he's calling me to say he has no idea what landlord tenant law is and he's got the docket next Tuesday. So I give him a little refresher court that he has been doing murder trials. He's the top prosecutor in an office under the top guy. He's the second charge. So all he's been doing is criminal law for 25 years. So when he gets made judge, boom, he's getting civil dockets and all that like the next week. And you know, let's face it.

What human is going to spend 25 years in a narrow field of law and then become a judge and have any idea what the hell's going on in that field? And to his credit, well, it is, but, I mean, to his credit, there was another guy that was one of the youngest judges in the state of Virginia. And this guy was a former prosecutor and brother. He was an awesome human being. And he has a case with me on landlord tenant and he calls me up and he goes, Jack, can you approach? He's like 35 years old. And I said, yes, sir. And he goes,

James M Porfido (50:39.435)
It's frightening.

Moore to Consider (51:01.189)
Now, if they appear, that's 10 days before you can file for the possession for them to be removed from the property. I said, yes, sir. He goes, do you mind if I ask you a question every once in while, just off the record to the side? I'm like, yeah, yes, sir. And I thought, you know, I'm sorry, but I'd been doing it for like five years. So I had a really good work and knowledge of landlord tenant law. And he was admitting, just like my buddy that called me, I don't know what the hell's going on.

And really, if you become a judge and next Tuesday you're doing a docket for landlord tenant and you've never really been, I got immersed in it quick by a guy that's an expert in the field. He gave me a couple of books, read this. It's going to give you all the stuff you need to know mechanically how this works. And then the next week I'm in court, you know, and I got my ass handed to me a few times on some things. like, I don't know what the hell's going on. Cause I'd never done it. But then, you know, by a month I felt like I was pretty comfortable.

But you know, you get judges that didn't have to do the broad general knowledge stuff all the way across all facets of law when they've been a former prosecutor. Prosecutors don't really know much about anything else when it comes to law. Just because you're doing law all the time. You're doing criminal law all the time. Nothing wrong with that.

James M Porfido (52:09.904)
Right. No, and that's a good point. I I left the prosecutor's office. I really didn't know much other than criminal law. And I worked for my family firm. My uncle had a firm, a small firm, and I associated with him and became a junior partner with the firm for five years. And I learned all these different things. I learned real estate, how to do closings. I learned about estate planning.

Moore to Consider (52:20.623)
Mm-hmm.

Moore to Consider (52:31.631)
Yes.

James M Porfido (52:38.095)
And I decided I would just take on cases and learn. That was what I was there to do. I was gonna pick up a file and learn about it. up in, New Jersey has a court of equity where most states don't even have courts of equity anymore, where you're not looking for punishment or money, but you're looking for like injunctive action, like a stop work or something like that, or cease and desist or something like that.

Moore to Consider (52:58.607)
Yes.

James M Porfido (53:03.608)
And I learned about equity. So I learned about a lot of different facets of law, which I think definitely benefited me later on in my career with my practice because I wasn't so afraid to take on a case. I knew that I could educate myself and take the time necessary and that I had the skills that I had developed as a prosecutor that I could step into any kind of a courtroom and feel comfortable.

Moore to Consider (53:32.331)
I would say this though, I, you know, maybe I'm trying to trumpet for both of us having come from that background, but I do think if you've been a prosecutor and defense attorney, it's much easier to go into the other fields because when I would come back, I worked in the last firm I worked in was basically a real estate firm. We did landlord tenant. We did nothing but real estate closings. One of the biggest in the city of Virginia Beach. And

When something would happen to relative or friend, they're like, Jack, Jack, we got a criminal justice matter. We got it. We got a criminal law matter and I'd have to step in and try to help. had no sense at all of criminal law. Like none. And I'm not downing them, but they'd come to, they'd come to the office every day and do real estate closings all day. So their real general knowledge of the things that we learned, which I think is much more mechanical and procedural than probably, well, I mean, there are certainly procedural issues to everything in law.

But we really learned to paint by the numbers. You we learned that you got to check that box before you check this box. And we think in terms of, has that been proven? Can we go to the next thing? And you got more time. When you're in criminal court, you're really on your feet having to really hear a lot of things at once. Would you not agree?

James M Porfido (54:41.262)
I definitely, most definitely, it's a lot on the fly for sure. Yeah. Yep.

Moore to Consider (54:45.013)
It is. It is. And when you feel comfortable on the fly and somebody told me this going in, you won't feel comfortable for three years. And I remember three to five years is kind of like whatever came out of left field. You kind of figured on your feet how to handle it and not look like it's completely blind side, which is. Yeah. Is the most important.

James M Porfido (55:03.855)
Right, Yeah, I mean, sometimes you just pick a case and you say, you know what, I gotta get involved in this. I just gotta do this case, you know, and it might not be in your field of practice.

I can recall one specific case where I never appeared on a stocks matter, like stocks and trades. And I had a guy that was a Mason and he was investing money for his children over years and years and years, hard earned dollars, you know, basically. then he had a family friend whose son was in the investment business and worked for an investment brokerage house. And he was investing this money. And the guy was basically engaged in a Ponzi scheme. He was sending statements.

And the guy would write out the checks and he would give him the checks for the investments. And really the money was not being invested, it was being put in this guy's pocket. And ultimately he was criminally charged. So I took on the case as him as the victim going after the brokerage house. And I didn't know anything about it, but I reached out to a NASD attorney.

Moore to Consider (56:04.799)
Mm-hmm.

James M Porfido (56:10.19)
national, I don't even remember, but security, NASDAQ. So I said, I don't really know much about I said, no, you're a litigator. You can handle this case. said, you got to basically present your case. And so I did all the pleadings, the paperwork, all that stuff. And we appeared before a panel of arbitrators in New York City. And the brokerage house was like, they tried to basically say, hey, this guy had nothing to do with this enterprise. It was over $50,000. And it was a substantial amount of money, especially

Moore to Consider (56:12.618)
Mm-hmm.

James M Porfido (56:40.153)
a guy that used his hands, a laborer out there trying to save up for his kids future. I felt that personally that this guy needed somebody aggressive and fighting for his position. So we went and the head of the brokerage house testified and basically tried to say the brokerage firm had no knowledge or awareness. And the bottom line was the guy would actually go there to the investment house to meet with the guy to give him the checks. So I was able to show that.

And the checks were made out to the name of the investment firm. And the guy came across really bad, the head of the brokerage house. So we won. The arbitrators, there was, I think, battle of two arbitrators or three arbitrators, and they found in our favor. And he was able to recoup his money, get all that money back.

and my legal fees on top of that. So, you know, I didn't know anything about that area of the law, but I decided this is something I should be involved in. And I learned. I just learned it. And I never did another case in that area, but it was something I had never done before, to get to your point, is sometimes you just get involved in something because you have to get involved.

Moore to Consider (57:50.6)
James, I have so enjoyed this hour. We've been here for an hour now. I want you to give everything you can about how people can get your book, any other things you want to talk about, where people can hear you. And I would love for us to do this again in the near future, but please, yeah, please tell, please tell everybody where you are, what your firm is, where you're practicing and your book and everything else.

James M Porfido (58:08.257)
That'd be great. I thought you'd do it too.

James M Porfido (58:16.215)
Sure. All right. My book, Unequal Justice, is available on Amazon.

Barnes & Noble, have a website, www.unequal-justice.com. You can certainly Google my name, James N. Porfido. I'm affiliated with the firm. I'm of counsel with a firm of about 50 attorneys in New Jersey where I'm basically in the criminal section and as a consultant. the name of the firm is Einhorn, Barberito Frost, Botwenick, Nun, and Musmanno.

some outfall and it is a mouthful so that's who I'm presently with. I'm of counsel with them.

Moore to Consider (58:53.244)
That's a mouthful, it is.

James M Porfido (59:00.525)
And so I'm out basically promoting my book at this time and doing a lot of podcasts like this one. And if you go on YouTube, you can certainly find me as well. There's a lot of clips from my court TV appearances and media presence in TV. I've done that a lot over the years. I did an interview with Jack Hanfield, who's the author of Chicken Soup for the Soul. That's on YouTube. And so there's a lot of stuff I did.

Weinstein trial Harvey Weinstein trial when I was on Court TV and the Trayvon Martin case with the Zimmerman in Florida I've done that case Scott Peterson Robert Blake Phil Spector so this clips on a lot of these things on YouTube so that's going back a few years

Moore to Consider (59:48.636)
All right, now you just triggered one more thing for me there. Scott Peterson, what do you think? 25 words or less, do you think? You think you did?

James M Porfido (59:53.708)
Wow, wow. know, it's funny how these cases come back and they're back in focus after all these years. Now there's a Netflix show on. I haven't really watched it. He's maintaining his innocence. And I remember commenting on that case. He had Scott Garagos as his attorney. Very good attorney. Excellent attorney. Yeah, yeah. And I remember that case. And I just remember what really tipped the scales.

Moore to Consider (01:00:02.363)
Yeah.

Moore to Consider (01:00:06.682)
I haven't either.

Moore to Consider (01:00:12.993)
Yes, and he's an interesting guy to listen to. Yes.

James M Porfido (01:00:23.026)
against him was the fact that he had a mistress, this Amber Fry, and he did not disclose that. He was like, it seemed to be all an act, know, all these searches for his wife and all that. And, you know, he lied to the investigators. And maybe his biggest mistake was giving statements. Maybe he should have asserted his right to counsel immediately.

Moore to Consider (01:00:36.909)
Yes.

Moore to Consider (01:00:47.725)
No question.

James M Porfido (01:00:49.395)
because he got caught in so many lies about renting the boat that day and going out fishing and where the body was found in relation to where he rented the boat. There were so many like circumstantial pieces of evidence that now could have. So I do think.

I think he's guilty. do think he's guilty even all these years later. The interesting thing is that now he's saying that he didn't have a good competent counsel, which I can't agree on that because I think Scott Garagos did a tremendous job. You you got to deal with what you got. And he didn't have a lot to work with there because there was a lot of circumstantial evidence. And certainly Scott Peterson did not help his own case with his statements to the police and finding out that they were false and also finding out additional information.

that they did through their own investigation. Another interesting case is the Menendez case, which I commented on many, many years ago. The Menendez brothers, and that's back in fashion as well today with the Netflix show. And then...

Moore to Consider (01:01:45.356)
Yes. Yep.

James M Porfido (01:01:47.869)
you know, the politically appointed prosecutor, Gascoigne, who was ousted from LA, said he was going to allow them the opportunity to have a retrial or a new trial or release then because they had done enough time behind bars. And there was a huge outrage over that. you know, they had exhausted all their appeal remedies through the court system. And here you have a politically appointed DA who's saying, well, this is politically in fashion.

You know, now that it's on Netflix, I'm gonna sway to their wishes. And that's just not the way you can handle that office of being a prosecutor. That's not what determines whether somebody's been wrongfully convicted or whether they're doing enough time or sentenced appropriately. That's not the job of the DA. And I felt like he was way overstepping his boundaries. And I think the voters spoke loudly about that when they voted and voted him out.

Moore to Consider (01:02:44.919)
You brought up a really important point. One of my law professors does a whole hour on why you never speak to the police. And I think you're right. Scott Peterson is the, is the poster child for that. When I taught that in my criminal justice, Oh, you know, like coach, you know what? I was like, no, no, there's nothing positive that will ever come out of you speaking. And then it was funny. I said there, I was like, ask Martha Stewart. And they're like, who's that? And I'm like, okay, well, then I explained.

And then I said something about they were after her for insider trading, but they get her for being less than truthful to a federal agent because she spoke and they're like, what's insider trading? I'm like, well, that's when Bud Fox tells Gordon Gekko about blue star airlines. So then I show them the clip from wall street, you know, so, and then I thought the greatest clip to show them or movie clips was my cousin Vinny. Everything about a criminal trial is in that, but we would teach through all these examples, but

James M Porfido (01:03:25.512)
Hahaha!

James M Porfido (01:03:34.997)
my god, yes.

Moore to Consider (01:03:39.909)
One thing I wanted to run by you, cause I wonder if you ever saw this, cause it really shocked me. I remember when they were after Zimmerman on the Trayvon Martin, they beat to hell the alphabet news agencies. We'll just call it that about how he was told to cease on the pursuit of Martin. And I remember these particular talking head journalists would just go,

James M Porfido (01:03:54.558)
Hmm?

Moore to Consider (01:04:05.127)
And right after he was told, stop, are you pursuing him? Please stop. He went right ahead and chased him down and killed him. You know, I heard that over and over. I don't know this is still available, but about a year or so into all of this, they posted on YouTube, the entire ride around on film interview of Zimmerman 24 hours, less than 24 hours after the shooting. So they've got him in a patrol car.

And they're like, what happened next? And what happened next? And at one point he goes, well, I was walking right here and I'm on my cell phone and the guy in dispatch said, what are you doing? He goes, I'm trying to find him. No, you stopped that right now. And he goes, and the officer's like, and what did you do? He gets started heading to my car. I started heading to my car and he goes, and then what happened? Trayvon Martin popped out and said, dude, why are you following me? And then the altercation began.

And I thought, okay, he either had the, the foresight to think one day I'm going to have to make up a story. So I'll make up a story now, but it seems sincere. So if he's telling the truth, less than 24 hours, he hasn't been charged yet. Less than 24 hours after the shooting. He says, when the dispatcher told me to stop, I headed to my car, Trayvon Martin came out of the shadows and said, what the hell dude. And then the altercation began.

If that's true, a big part of where he was vilified in the press, that he kept chasing him after the dispatcher said don't, was a lie. And I don't even know if they knew that. Did you ever see that video?

James M Porfido (01:05:44.553)
I've never seen it, but I did hear that. I did commentary on the case. So I do remember that coming up and he was acquitted by the way. He was found not guilty and there was a huge outrage over that because it was racially divided again. So I do remember the case and I do remember that he really came across as sincere and honest and

Moore to Consider (01:05:47.666)
of him? Yeah. Yeah.

Moore to Consider (01:06:02.574)
Absolutely.

James M Porfido (01:06:12.44)
not looking to hurt anybody and I think that that presented itself.

in the case that he really came across as that kind of a person that he wasn't interested in hurting somebody or, killing, certainly not killing anyone. And I think in Florida, he had, was a certain law that allowed him to exercise the use of force the way he did. I, I don't recall the name of the, of the law specifically, but it clearly gave, exculpated him and allowed him to behave or engage in that conduct. So there was no way a jury could have been guilty.

Moore to Consider (01:06:44.88)
Well, there was...

Yeah. And everybody was going crazy about staying your ground. wasn't a stand your ground case. If his factually, he was on his back in his head, beaten into concrete. And he said he looked into Trayvon Martin's eyes and recognize that he saw the pistol. And then it was like, if he gets this for me, I'm dead. And, and, but again, it wasn't, he had a duty to retreat. He could not retreat. He was in restraint. He was getting his head bashed against.

James M Porfido (01:06:52.143)
Right, right.

James M Porfido (01:07:04.882)
That's right.

James M Porfido (01:07:10.438)
That's right.

Moore to Consider (01:07:12.206)
Yeah. everybody's like, stand your ground's got to go. And I'm like, it's not a stand your ground case. wasn't a question of, he have a place to retreat? So yeah. And that becomes frustrating too, cause stuff is in the news and people are saying whatever the hell they want to about it. And not just because we're legally trained, just be, yeah.

James M Porfido (01:07:16.7)
That's right.

James M Porfido (01:07:25.82)
Well that's it.

The media definitely can sway opinions for sure. And they do on a daily basis. I'm giving cases, they do that for sure. And I remember having conversations with people about the whole Trump prosecutions in Georgia and in New York. And I said, these are not justified prosecutions. I don't care if he's Donald Duck or Donald Trump. It doesn't matter. Right? And I said,

Moore to Consider (01:07:52.204)
Be careful what you wish for. It got them elected. And I was talking to a friend the other day. Well, I was talking to a friend the other day and he said, I think they got to rein in all this lying on the network. It's like, no, let it happen. Let them lie all they want because the same alphabet agencies or news agencies, no one's listening to them anymore. They've lost credibility. That's why I'm, yeah, of course, but they're losing shit. So Joe Rogan's getting 3 million people at a shot. Great. God bless Joe Rogan.

James M Porfido (01:07:58.214)
Yeah.

James M Porfido (01:08:13.157)
And they're still doing it. And they're still doing it.

Moore to Consider (01:08:21.995)
I don't know Joe Rogan, but he appears to me to be a pretty straight down the center guy. puts you on, tell your story. And if you're Trump, you do two and a half hours, guess what? It helps. If you can sit down with, and it helped Vance.

James M Porfido (01:08:26.254)
yeah? Sure, sure.

That damn right. What do you have? 38 million listeners. 38 million. So and what did he win? What do you have? Like 77 million votes. He had 38 million right there on a podcast. you know, listen, I'm with you 100 % and it's unfortunate that the media can control the narrative. And look, I just look at it as a lawyer like you would look at it. If the prosecutor hired her boyfriend,

Moore to Consider (01:08:39.213)
Yes!

James M Porfido (01:09:00.808)
and she's paying him $600,000, $600,000. And the guy has no prosecutorial background. And she's got cash laying around and she doesn't think that this is a problem. She doesn't have any issue with that. And she basically campaigns and says, I'm gonna get this guy. And same with the DA in New York, brag.

Moore to Consider (01:09:01.72)
God yes.

Yes.

Moore to Consider (01:09:09.742)
Uh-uh. Uh-uh.

James M Porfido (01:09:25.265)
who says he campaigns to get the appointment as a DA or the election. And he says, I'm gonna get Trump. I'm gonna get him. I'm gonna get him. You know what? People gotta stop with this nonsense. It's nonsense, you know? And I see it all the time, you know? If you hate the man, let's look at what he's doing for the country. That's the bottom line. And we can disagree on that stuff all long.

Moore to Consider (01:09:48.034)
Well, in the-

No, no doubt, but well, you know, it's, all over the news. And I think it's true. lot of what Trump said the other night in this state of the union address joint session of Congress, everyone's there. He's a lot as they're saying now 80, 20 issues, 80 % of the country in agreement. And if you're going to sit on your hands and they're going to give a special assignment to this kid with cancer, and you're going to sit on your hands or boo the 13 year old cancer survivor.

James M Porfido (01:10:13.745)
Right?

Moore to Consider (01:10:17.557)
That's not a good strategy. That's not going to work out well for you.

James M Porfido (01:10:20.997)
No, it's not, because these are Americans like everybody else, you know what?

doesn't matter what political party they are, if you can't get up and stand up for a tragedy that happened and the widow and the daughters that are there and they're being recognized and you can't clap or applaud for them or the law was changed because this girl was killed by an illegal alien in the country and a law was passed to have special laws enacted regarding the commission of crimes and you can't stand up and applaud the mother and the sister

of this young lady that was killed who was a nursing student? My God, what is going on here? It's sad.

Moore to Consider (01:11:01.973)
You know, one thing on the race issue, one thing on the division stuff, and this was 30 years ago, I was doing talk radio in Norfolk, Virginia. I'll never forget this. I was actually outside the studio. just finished the show and I was watching this other guy and they're really, this is 30 years ago, really getting into a lot of kind of nasty are people prejudicial by nature and all this kind of stuff. And this gentleman called in and it kind of shut the guy up for a minute. He had to go to break. He called in.

And he said, young fellas, you don't know what you're talking about. I raised on X number of years old, X number of years of age at the time. And he said, I was in the 'Nam. I was in Vietnam. One day a grenade got thrown in my area. I'm a black man. Gentlemen, I'm a black man. White man jumped on my back. Saved my life. He took most of the shrapnel. I walked away with out of scratch. You guys don't understand when you're green.

And your lives depend on the guy that doesn't look like you. Doesn't matter. And I was like, Whoa, you know, and that's not the only time I've heard that story. I've heard, I had a young man that I coached in baseball. He's 24 years old and he tells me coach, wouldn't have liked me at 14. I'm like, why is that? And he said, I was slinging drugs in DC. So they sent me to this rural area of Virginia to stay with grandma, to clean up my act. And I finally at 18 had a judge pretty much say to me, it's the military or jail. What do you want to do? So I go in the army.

He goes, I hate the white man. I hate everything white. I just hate everything. First day I'm in boot camp. get in a fight with a white guy. They make me platoon leader and same story because I'm in Iraq and I have a white guy really go out of his way to save my life in a really bad situation. And all of it went away. All of it. He was like, coach, do you know what it's like to literally put your, your life in the hands of others?

James M Porfido (01:12:52.174)
Mm.

Moore to Consider (01:13:00.434)
Like, no son, I've never been in that. He said, when you're there and it's all of God's children, all different colors, and you're all pulling from the same end of the rope, that stuff just kind of goes away. And I said, son, you need to be on the circus that is a motivational speaker. And he said, I wish you could have known what I was and what I became. And it was because of the military. And he said, when you're put into that kind of situation where it's life and death, you really let go of a lot of things that don't matter. And he goes, I had absolute trust.

James M Porfido (01:13:15.814)
All right.

Moore to Consider (01:13:29.977)
and whites, blacks, browns. He goes, don't care what color the people were. I had absolute trust in every one of them. They never let me down. And I'm like, okay. And I don't think we hear that story enough. Now that's an individual story I heard from a kid who had been in Iraq for a year and had kind of fallen into the military thing because of his lifestyle and the choices he made growing up, which he grew up in DC. He was in Washington, DC and a really rough part of town slinging drugs. That's what he said I was doing.

James M Porfido (01:13:52.815)
Mm-hmm.

Moore to Consider (01:13:59.761)
And it got me in enough trouble that the man, I was awoken. I was told what was what.

James M Porfido (01:14:06.405)
That's an amazing story, really. And it is something, you know, they're there for a mission and it's not about, you know, what color is your skin versus the color of my skin. You're there to help each other. You know, you're in a common mission, a common goal. You know, it's like being on the football field or a baseball field or whatever, you know, you're involved in a sporting event. It's your teammate. You know, you guys are there to win. You know, that's what not winning at all costs, but, you know, you certainly have got to know, hey,

Moore to Consider (01:14:09.989)
It is.

Moore to Consider (01:14:24.049)
Mm-hmm.

James M Porfido (01:14:35.865)
That's the guy I think we've got to get the ball to because if you put the ball in his hands with like one second left, he's going to bury the three pointer and we're going to win the game. You don't say, well, he's a black guy. I'm not going to pass him the ball. That's the most crazy thing, right? mean, sports really is a... Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry.

Moore to Consider (01:14:40.135)
That's right.

Moore to Consider (01:14:50.341)
Yeah, you're absolutely right.

I do think that...

What I was going to say growing up in an environment as a young male, regardless of your ethnicity, your race, whatever, when you play sports and you were surrounded by people who don't look exactly like you, that is the easiest way to learn how to get along with people. Believe me. yeah, oh, and that's one step, certainly, or many steps below the military experience. But definitely, because there's so much more at risk and at stake.

James M Porfido (01:15:16.512)
Amen. Amen for sure.

James M Porfido (01:15:24.632)
Right, right.

Moore to Consider (01:15:28.088)
But when you play sports with people, that is a way, all the runs count the same. All the touchdowns can count the same. And yeah, when you pull from the same in a rope with people like that, they're, they're going to be your brothers for life. They will remain your brothers for life.

James M Porfido (01:15:41.86)
Yeah, I agree. I agree. You know, I was never in the military, but that's how I equate it with sports. You know, I go back to my days playing sports and, we're just teammates. You know, it's we're all in it for the same reason, you know, and that's that's kind of like what the military is like. Of course, the stakes are much higher for sure.

Moore to Consider (01:16:01.316)
Right, right. Well, brother, I have really enjoyed this. Let's stay in touch. Let's let's do another show.