The Legacy of Secretariat

Moore to Consider (00:00.964)
Welcome to another edition of Moore to Consider. As I've said from the start of this podcast, I talk about things that mean something to me. Everybody can talk about what they want to talk about, but I'm going to talk about things that mean something to me. I am a Virginian all the way back to Jamestown. So I'm very, very proud. I just think it's a God's gift that, and the gentleman to have on today's Kentucky, that's Western Virginia. And we'll know all the history there too, but I'm from Virginia and I grow up.

And my dad gets sent to Caroline County between Richmond and Fredericksburg as a state trooper. Many people know the Loving versus Virginia biracial marriage case. The sheriff that arrested them at 2 a.m. went in their house and arrested them. That's the man my father defeated. So my father went on to be sheriff for 28 years. And when I'm in my 11th year of life, this, well, actually, I'll go back, when I was 10, Riva Ridge becomes this thing, Meadow Stables.

He wins two thirds of the triple crown. He loses on a wet track at the Preakness. And we're like, Hey, he's from here in Caroline County. Then the next year God strikes with Secretariat. So I have on Leonard Lusky who has a same, much more of a connection to the Secretariat than I had, but I grew up and I have a friend several months ago, takes her son to Ashland in Virginia to a college. There's a big statue of Secretariat and says, Hey,

Leonard Lusky (00:59.341)
Right.

Moore to Consider (01:29.271)
You're always telling me he was born in Caroline. He was born in Hanover, the next county. I'm like, no, no, no. So last spring, I went to the place where Meadow Stables is. And I stood in the stall where he spent his first, from his first birthday to his second birthday. He was in the stall that Riva Ridge was in the year before. And I asked the people, where the hell is this farm? They're like, entirely lies within Caroline County. There is a connection that Chicheneries had to Ashland, which is right on the border. Doswell's on the border.

Leonard Lusky (01:58.648)
Right.

Moore to Consider (01:58.861)
Doswell's kind of split between the two counties, but here it is growing up as a kid. My favorite superhero of all time happened to be born March 30, 1970. We're just days away as we record this, we're days away from the 55th anniversary of his birthday. And then where I grew up, he's the guy. He he'll always be the guy. He was America's horse superstar. Leonard, please give me your

Leonard Lusky (02:25.613)
Yes, sir.

Moore to Consider (02:26.829)
Please give me your history of your connection to Secretariat.

Leonard Lusky (02:29.91)
Well, I have a great history of Louisville and the Derby was always my thing, like Redskins were for you. But I met Penny Chenry, Secretariat's owner, when we were doing a book project for the 125th anniversary of the Kentucky Derby. And I was working on that project. Met her, of course knew about the Secretariat, knew about her.

Moore to Consider (02:40.823)
Mm-hmm.

Moore to Consider (02:58.818)
Sure.

Leonard Lusky (02:59.618)
When I met her, she was just delightful and it just stuck with me at that time that what a neat lady. And then she told me that she was working on actually a project to get a monument of Secretariat placed at the Kentucky Horse Park. And I called her and she remembered me from the book and I said, I really think I can help you.

And she said, well, come on over to my house. Let's talk about it. She lived in Lexington at the time. And I went over there and it was one of the greatest experiences of my life. And we really had a fun conversation. And the long story short is she allowed me to start handling the rights of Secretariat for her. And I was able to do that for about 15 years until she died in 2017. And then...

continued on with her family for some time.

Moore to Consider (03:57.036)
If I'm not mistaken, she lived in 95, right? Was she 95 years of age, I think, when she passed? Yeah. Yeah. So for the people that are listening to this, we're talking about an event 50 years out and we're in the midst of Watergate. We're in the midst of really the last stages of Vietnam. America's really in turmoil. It's 10 years, you know, after the assassination of President Kennedy, which is also one of my subjects, of course, but you know, I'm 11.

Leonard Lusky (04:01.858)
Hi. Exactly.

Leonard Lusky (04:11.021)
Let's go.

Moore to Consider (04:27.17)
12, I guess, in that range based on, yeah. So America's kind of at a downfall and you you have to live in that period where there's three major stations, CBS, NBC, ABC. You might have, you know, the UHF station where you grow up, but magazines are huge. And he's a cover boy. As this thing breaks out, a matter of fact, that's I can't it Newsweek, one of them titled America's Whores. And the greatest line ever was Sports Illustrated. Sports Illustrated.

Leonard Lusky (04:28.525)
Right.

Moore to Consider (04:56.566)
They did a story on him and there's this beautiful picture of him.

And the writer said, God's horse. It was like God's horse. If God had sat down to create the perfect race horse, this was it. I get emotional talking about it he was, and he turns out in his autopsy, he dies of laminitis basically. I guess they had to put him down, but he was 19 years of age. And I cried. mean, when I heard it and I was coaching college baseball and it was like, coach, what's the matter? I'm like, secretariat's gone.

Leonard Lusky (05:12.322)
Right.

Moore to Consider (05:29.845)
Who's that? I'm, you know, it's an age gap there. And I couldn't believe it, because all the stories that heard how healthy he was, fans were all coming to see him and all that type of thing. And then he's gone. And then the story, of course, one of the most famous stories, the average, I've heard different estimates, the average heart weight of a thoroughbred racehorse is anywhere between nine and 11 pounds. And I've heard his was 22 to 23. And sham that he famously defeated throughout the Triple Crown was 15.

Leonard Lusky (05:51.64)
Try it.

That's right.

Leonard Lusky (05:59.566)
18.

Moore to Consider (05:59.969)
was he 18? Okay. And what's sad about him is in any other year, he's one of the greatest racehorses of all time.

Leonard Lusky (06:09.108)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Moore to Consider (06:11.019)
So, yeah, so tell me more about what you did with the Secretariat legacy.

Leonard Lusky (06:18.188)
Well, I will. I want to touch on some of the things. One of the things I was just going to tell you, I was able to interview the doctor, the veterinarian who autopsied Secretariat and got to hear about that whole story and how that took place. But we can come back to that. When I met Ms. Chenery and we were talking about that, one of the first things I said was, it's important

Moore to Consider (06:30.602)
Right.

Leonard Lusky (06:47.96)
that you have a platform to reach fans and to be reached by fans. And I have Secretariat.com and that I think is the venue. This is now, you know, we're talking early 2000s, so the internet was going, but it wasn't where it is today. But she found that really interesting and, you know, I'll never forget this, because she was such an interesting woman. And she said, so tell me,

Moore to Consider (07:04.33)
Yeah. Right.

Leonard Lusky (07:18.314)
If I were to allow you to do some projects for me, what is the first thing you would do? And I said, in all honesty, well, Penny, the big thing right now is bobbleheads. And they're everywhere. And I think you should have a bobblehead. And I'll never forget her response. She looked at me with those piercing blue eyes and she said, those are just ghastly. That was her word, ghastly.

Moore to Consider (07:41.577)
Right?

Leonard Lusky (07:46.51)
And I laughed and I said, well, I understand that, but that's what the fans want. And when I tell the story now, I really do think she was testing me. And I answered from the heart that she liked it. I said, you maybe you think that and I get that they're caricatures, but you were always about the fan and what the fans want right now is a bobble head. So give them what they want. And I said, it doesn't have to be cheap.

Moore to Consider (07:53.407)
Mm-hmm.

Leonard Lusky (08:16.448)
It can be the Rolls Royce of bobbleheads. And I said the better thing, it would be the first horse bobblehead ever. Well, she really liked that. So she said, let's go ahead and do that. I'll give you a shot. And I started Secretariat.com. We put the bobblehead out. And I'm not sure, do you ever remember the IBM commercial where the guys launch and they get an order and they're hooping and hollering and laughing. They get another one and they're really laughing. And then it goes.

Moore to Consider (08:16.682)
Mm-hmm.

Leonard Lusky (08:45.838)
10,000 and they go quiet. Do you remember that? It's a, that's what happened. It just went boom. And I think there were over a hundred thousand units we ended up selling, but that was really the beginning of our relationship. And the more I did with her and the more the fans really connected through Secretariat.com and I was able to.

Moore to Consider (08:49.408)
I do. think there's something about, yeah.

Moore to Consider (09:06.409)
Mm-hmm.

Leonard Lusky (09:14.774)
really reunite the team at the time that was still alive. We would do events and so forth. And it really became fun to go out and tell his story. And it really, was great, but there was a complete sea change in 2010 when Disney decided they were gonna tell the story. yeah.

Moore to Consider (09:35.763)
did the movie. And Penny Tweedy did the cameo appearance during the, yeah, yeah, that was great.

Leonard Lusky (09:41.526)
I was actually a technical abuser on the film, so I was.

Moore to Consider (09:44.562)
I was gonna ask, did you then lead into the film? I figured you probably did, yeah.

Leonard Lusky (09:48.054)
Yes, and that was just an incredible experience, but it really elevated, you know, as in all movies, it takes some liberties. You mentioned Riva Ridge earlier. Well, what they did, and they talked about this beforehand and Penny was good with it. They said, we're going to take Riva Ridge story of actually saving the farm and meld it with Secretariat's Triple Craft. And that's what they did.

Moore to Consider (10:00.424)
They don't mention them.

Moore to Consider (10:07.56)
Mm-hmm.

Moore to Consider (10:15.421)
Right, right. Exactly.

Leonard Lusky (10:17.422)
And, and, I, for, for the, you know, for the, for the Hollywood purposes, I think they did the right thing. Now people want to know about Riva. Yeah. We have a documentary, you know, that you can always, we recommend. So anyway, but that really changed a lot of things. And all of a sudden, instead of 50 to 70 year old men who were our primary followers, and it became

10 to 20 to 30 year old women. right now, I think there's every bit as much interest in Secretariat from women as there are for men, which is really unusual and interesting in its own way.

Moore to Consider (10:58.878)
Yeah, that, you know, and I have, dear friend gave me the picture, the Ron Turcotte autographed picture of the famous head turn, which I think many people know in jockey school 101, you know, and, of course the character Malkovich playing Lucian Lauren Ronnie don't fall off cause he wins the Belmont by 31 links. And everybody's like, the only thing that can go wrong now. And Turcotte has many times said in school 101

Leonard Lusky (11:08.558)
Right.

Leonard Lusky (11:24.686)
Bye.

Moore to Consider (11:28.764)
Jockey don't ever turn around, don't ever look back. And he said, there is a natural sound of the race. You hear the thunder. I don't hear anything other than the animal underneath me. That's like a locomotive. And I got to know what the hell is everybody. And he took that look and they, had the famous photograph of him looking back, which they also depicted in the movie.

Leonard Lusky (11:30.52)
Right.

Leonard Lusky (11:47.128)
Well...

Well, let me tell you the real story because there is a misconception. Many, many people because of that image think he is looking back to see where the other horses are. In reality, he knew he was going fast and he took a look at the electronic timer that was on the wire to see if he was going to beat the record, which of course he shattered it. But that's he's looking for, not looking back.

Moore to Consider (11:52.614)
Okay.

Moore to Consider (11:56.19)
Mm-hmm.

Moore to Consider (12:09.405)
Moore to Consider (12:14.962)
He did. Wow. Okay. I thought I'd heard him say otherwise. You got the better scoop on that. That's interesting that he's looking at the timer. Yeah. But I also remember him saying, whatever you do, you were taught. Don't look back. yeah. And he did look back and he is.

Leonard Lusky (12:29.325)
Right.

Well, you will see earlier in the race, he does take a few quick peeks back. Where are the other horses? But the famous shot, he's looking at the timer.

Moore to Consider (12:38.663)
Right.

Moore to Consider (12:42.639)
And like so much, I have a friend of mine in major league baseball and he's actually his close friend for 30 years. And he's made a lot of impact in professional football, working with quarterbacks and he's a PhD with two master's degrees, scary, brilliant in pitching the big leagues. And one of the things he's really shown in studies is that all your elite crazy elite athletes are late bloomers. And I was reading over some of the history that they thought Secretariat young was fat kind of.

bust. Then when he breaks out, people that know the business are like, holy cow, this is a different animal. So I read the other day that in one of his early races, he kind of got blocked up and knocked around, which led him to this. And correct me if I'm wrong. Turcotte was like, I let him do whatever the hell he wanted to because however he was going to run, he was going to run. He was competitive.

Leonard Lusky (13:18.958)
Absolutely.

Leonard Lusky (13:33.912)
Right.

Moore to Consider (13:36.092)
So you like, he knew he liked to see the tail end of horses and run around them or whatever it was, but that it might've been the trauma of his first race where he gets hit that leaves them. So, and I think you'll back me on this. What always I found fascinating is a Kentucky Derby because then it's like, what a 22 horse race or 18, 19. It's very number high number. And if you listen to the call, he's the favorite and it's like, wow, they're out to shoot in boom, boom, boom, boom. And they list 14 horses and Secretariat's pulled up the rear.

Then he goes all the way around all of the horses to go out on the outside, to then gain the rail towards the end and sprints across. And there's been, to my knowledge, three horses to break two minutes. He sham in the same race. And now another horse here, like 10, 15 years ago, did it, but only only three have ever done it in history. So, so you think about just mere distance, you know, whatever the race is, he just ran a loop around the.

Leonard Lusky (14:24.342)
Narcos. That's right.

Moore to Consider (14:35.629)
rear ends of all these horses to get to that position and set a track record. What if he's on the rail the whole time? What the hell does he run? Right.

Leonard Lusky (14:44.462)
Right, right, right. Which they track these days now, but then they didn't. But I'm going to tell you a little statistic that is even more impressive when looking in the context. So of all the races ever run in the Kentucky Derby, now it's 151 of them. Yes, he's the fastest of thousands of horses that have participated, but there's been only one horse and it was Secretariat.

who ran each successive quarter faster than the previous. In other words, he was running the fastest at the end. When most of the courses were struggling to get the distance, he was just getting faster and faster. And that to me is probably an accomplishment that'll never happen.

Moore to Consider (15:21.424)
the end. Yeah.

Moore to Consider (15:29.465)
It's weird. It's weird. I heard a guy tell that store and he said he started the race at 36 miles per hour and finished at 39, I believe. And he says he's sprinting at the end. Horses just don't do that. And then of course what's, you go ahead.

Leonard Lusky (15:36.492)
Yeah, yeah.

Leonard Lusky (15:40.974)
Right. No, no, you're exactly right. And what's really interesting when you look at that race in context with the Preakness and the Belmont, if you're a horse fan, you know, justify won the Triple Crown in 2018, American Pharaoh in 2015, Seattle Slew and Firm in 77 and 78. What you will see with each one of those horses

Moore to Consider (16:06.203)
78, right?

Leonard Lusky (16:11.188)
is they have a style. know, Seattle Slew liked to be on the lead. The firm was kind of a stalker. American Pharaoh the same. They all ran the same race for all three of the Triple Crown. Secretariat's versatility is unbelievable because he actually ran what we're talking about in the Derby coming from last. In the Preakness, he goes to the lead and way early, more so than he ever should have in the race.

Moore to Consider (16:19.557)
Right.

Moore to Consider (16:40.505)
Ever did. Yeah. Yeah.

Leonard Lusky (16:41.462)
And then in the Belmont, you know, he duels with, with Shamm and then of course takes, takes off.

Moore to Consider (16:47.929)
If I'm not mistaken too sham did like hairline fracture a bone, right? And never raced again. Yeah.

Leonard Lusky (16:53.398)
He did. Right, Lafitte Pincai, as opposed to the movie, is very close friends with Ronnie, and we have done many, many events with him. Wonderful guy. And he talked a lot about that. And you know, he told me, said a few things that he said that were really interesting. He said, I really thought I had a good shot at the Derby because the Secretariat was coming off the loss in the wood.

He said, I was surprised in the Preakness because I got passed way early and I thought, oh, he's making a mistake and I just couldn't get him. He said, but the Belmont, I knew I had no shot. He said, the horse was doing really well and we had to take a shot at him. He said, but I just watched his big rear end getting farther and farther away. he said, I knew how good sham was.

And I knew something was wrong and it did turn out he had a hairline fracture. The other thing that is so interesting, he said, you know, he wrote affirmed in affirms on four-year-old season when he was a champion and was undefeated on the firm. And one of the events that he told us, of course, the firm was a great Triple Crown champion, that he said, if affirmed had been in the 1973 Kentucky Derby,

he'd have come in third. So that tells you how good sham was.

Moore to Consider (18:23.382)
I don't think that, and again, I'm a total novice. The only thing I'm in this on is he's from Caroline, right? So he's my guy. and I also think that God does things sometimes just to show off. He's a show off. I mean, to go 50 years and nothing approaches him. I don't think we're ever.

Leonard Lusky (18:44.363)
Right.

Moore to Consider (18:46.254)
You know, and you hear people, it's the same thing in athletics. Like I think the football peaked in the eighties and nineties. I don't think guys are better than Lawrence Taylor and Reggie White and Jerry. I don't think they're better. And people like, it's like flag football to me now. And I make that argument a lot, but when everybody gets, wow, they're better trained, they're better. I'm like, really? Why aren't they better than him then? Like what is that? And that thing that, you know, we kind of superimpose these human characteristics are, you we try, I guess.

Leonard Lusky (18:54.305)
Right.

Leonard Lusky (19:03.768)
Right.

Leonard Lusky (19:12.418)
Right.

Moore to Consider (19:13.07)
And I, and don't know. I remember seeing Turcotte on an interview and it was basically, he goes, never went to the whip with him, the Secretariat. Like he's going to do his thing. And on the day the Belmont, which is heavily depicted in the movie, he comes out hot and all these race experts, my gosh, it's blowing and he can't do this. And he keeps doing it. He just keeps picking up speed and you're one. He's never run that way. He's never come out hot like that, that hot and Turcotte's like, okay, boy.

Leonard Lusky (19:31.235)
Yes.

Moore to Consider (19:41.525)
I don't know what you're doing here, but if you're going to do it, let's see what you can do. And then he does it. So you wonder. And I remember Penny Tweedy actually, I'll never forget an interview with her. She goes, I always wonder what went on in his mind. Like, what was he really thinking? Because he was such a ham. And I've heard around people, he was a sweetheart and he loved children. He was just nice to everybody. But I remember this reporter say.

Leonard Lusky (19:55.309)
Right.

Moore to Consider (20:08.91)
Cause I saw him enter one of the races and when he came out, I was like, that's right. It's me. Like he's like, he's hitting the red carpet and he had that look up. Yep. Yep. I'm here. I'm that guy. You know it. And there was another writer that had told a really funny story. He said he was in the stall talking to the reporter and he's talking to the reporter and he said, you see it all these documentaries. said, the hell's a big deal. He's a horse for God's sake. Everybody's making such a big deal. And he said, Secretariat grunt.

Leonard Lusky (20:20.238)
Right.

Moore to Consider (20:37.965)
threw his head back and looked at him like, I'm the good, take it in, drink it in. I'm that guy. And he goes, I honest to God think he was miffed. Like I had said, you know, what's the big deal. And he looked at him like, no, no, no, I am the big deal. And you probably heard the writer talk about a plane flew over one time and Secretariat was staring at it. He goes, I never saw a horse do that.

Leonard Lusky (20:54.723)
Right.

Leonard Lusky (20:59.802)
yeah, So I wanna talk to you about all these things, because I think you're gonna like the added parts about this. Penny, she always said Secretariat was intelligent, that the plane was, not all horses would do that, but he had a very intelligent mind. She said most of the great ones have an intelligence. He was sweet, but she...

described him as a mischievous adolescent. And she said, Eddie Sweat, his groom was perfect because Eddie was sweet with him, wouldn't try to manhandle him, but also was firm enough to keep him from being mean. And it was a very delicate balance to ask him to do things. And so he was really, he had been known to bite people.

He did like children, but no, I've met a few people that said, I got bit by a Secretariat, it's the proudest bite I ever got. In fact, Ronnie, Ronnie told me a great story once. He said, it was after one of the races as a two-year-old, and he said he tapped him on the shoulder, coming down the stretch, and he said he went by the barn the next day, and Ronnie, he said he grabbed him and bit the hell out of his arm like.

Moore to Consider (22:03.883)
Yeah, yeah.

Leonard Lusky (22:22.476)
don't do that again. He said, I never did. And it was over like that. But Charlie Davis, his exercise rider, he told me, he said, you know, just what you said, I don't try to put human characteristics. He said, but I got to tell you this. Every time Secretariat lost, he would go back to his stall, put his head in the corner, his butt to the wall, to the entrance. And he would brood and think about the loss.

Moore to Consider (22:43.031)
Yeah.

Leonard Lusky (22:50.08)
I said, now, why do you say that? He said, I'm just telling you, I was around him all the time. And he said, and I will tell you this, and this is fact, every race he lost, except the original one when he got squeezed, but every other race, he came back and set a track record the next time. So.

Moore to Consider (22:53.388)
Right. I've heard those stories. Yeah.

Moore to Consider (23:07.724)
Yes. Now, didn't he also in his last race he ran, didn't he run the fastest quarter mile in history?

Leonard Lusky (23:12.675)
you

Leonard Lusky (23:16.842)
in the Canadian International, I don't know that. I don't know that.

Moore to Consider (23:23.468)
Yeah, I think I saw a story because it was Shams jockey, right? Cause turcotte had been suspended and he said he was scared to death of losing on the way out. Cause it was Secretariat's final race.

Leonard Lusky (23:32.782)
It was Eddie Maple. No, Lafite Pincai was Shams.

Moore to Consider (23:39.575)
Oh, okay. Okay. But it was another, okay. I thought it was the same guy that had ridden sham. I'm okay. I'm mistaken, but I remember the jockey saying, I was like, oh my God, I got to ride this horse. And if I lose, but I believe there was a story that in a quarter, just for a flat quarter mile, he set a record, like a world record for a quarter of a mile on his way out. And then they, and then in the documentary I saw this on, they talked about whether to run him in his fourth year, which I guess is done sometimes.

Leonard Lusky (23:49.74)
Right. yeah.

Leonard Lusky (24:08.278)
No, no, that's not correct. And that's one of the things that it's a great mystery of, most horses do get reach maturity at four and five. And that's when they're at their athletic physical peak. So why didn't Secretariat run? Well, the reason it was never contemplated for him to run because when Kenny's father, Christopher Cheney died, this huge tax bill was due.

Moore to Consider (24:08.555)
And they decided to retire. Was that never done in the fourth year? Okay. Okay.

Moore to Consider (24:22.401)
Mm-hmm.

Moore to Consider (24:35.019)
Mm-hmm.

Leonard Lusky (24:37.39)
And the way to pay it was they syndicated Secretariat before he ever won the Triple Crown.

Moore to Consider (24:44.512)
like six and a half million or something like that. They sold shares. Yeah.

Leonard Lusky (24:46.23)
Yeah, 6.3, where his weight was literally worth, he was worth more than his weight in gold. But he, they did that with the condition and it was part of it. He will only race as a three year old. So.

Moore to Consider (24:59.478)
right? That he not raves pass, right? All right. So when he wins a triple crown through June of 73, when is that last race run? Like September ish? No, oh, is that far? Okay. Okay.

Leonard Lusky (25:09.932)
November, Yeah. And he got sick. You know, that was one of the things that happened. So it was, they weren't even sure if he would run again after August, but he rebounded and boy did he ever run. And so.

Moore to Consider (25:22.464)
Mm-hmm.

Moore to Consider (25:28.246)
So in the loss leading up to the triple crown as depicted in the movie, and I think a lot of people with the movie really heard that story. He had an abscess. Yeah. And he wasn't eating properly and they couldn't, you know, and as they depicted the movie, the stable guy goes, Oh, wait a minute. Then they get the doctors involved and they antibiotic him, guess, or whatever. And yeah.

Leonard Lusky (25:36.974)
That's right.

Leonard Lusky (25:48.886)
yeah. So, so the veterinarian here in Kentucky that treated him is still alive. He's 97 or 98. Dr. Copeland. And there might be a video on YouTube about it, but he talks about what happened and secretariat threw in this uncharacteristic, well, he lost and you know, he'd been on this huge wind streak. To Kentucky. I think Turcotte works in the first time after the wood.

Moore to Consider (25:55.09)
Mm-hmm. God bless him. Good for him.

Mm-hmm.

Moore to Consider (26:12.694)
Mm-hmm.

Leonard Lusky (26:18.764)
And he's got a lot of concern because he's still flat. He says he's just not picking up the bit like, and he's worried about it. He comes for the last workout a week before the Derby and Dr. Copeland says, well, we know that abscess, we know what happened. And Tercott didn't know. And he said, what? He said, well, I'm fooling with it. And he said, a golf ball size abscess ended up coming out of his lip.

I know he's feeling better and Ryan said that he got on him that day. He was his old self and that he knew he knew what he had for the Derby.

Moore to Consider (26:58.742)
Alright, so I'm looking at a thing online here. says 21 races, 16 first, three seconds, a third, and then I think he had a fourth, right? A place finish. So, right. Well, then you start to wonder because when, of course, and you know this history much better than I do, but you know, you can go online, man of war, secretariat, who's the greatest horse?

Leonard Lusky (27:07.4)
The fourth was his first dart when he got squeezed.

Moore to Consider (27:23.562)
They get into the weight of the jockeys. get into the weight of the equipment, they get into the track conditions. So, you know, again, I'm just kind of spit balling, but I got to believe that Secretariat it's not running in better conditions than they're running today. So he's right. He's a freak. It's 73. It's 50 plus years ago. Now he's running like that then and putting up times. It can't be touched. And you, and there's almost like that thing where.

Leonard Lusky (27:26.571)
shit.

Leonard Lusky (27:37.836)
Right? Right?

Leonard Lusky (27:47.629)
Right.

Moore to Consider (27:51.241)
The big part of him being a late bloomer, I think we'd accept that. And the bump start, the abscess, you can almost make an explanation why he should have never been beaten, but who knows, right? so do you think, because I think, wasn't Manowar one loss ever? mean, one not.

Leonard Lusky (28:03.539)
absolutely.

Leonard Lusky (28:09.102)
One thought that by Upset of all horses, that was the name of the horse. And that's one of the reasons why the word Upset is still so popular today.

Moore to Consider (28:13.845)
Right.

Moore to Consider (28:18.805)
When we get into the issue, cause again, baseball, do a lot of shows on baseball and I coach college baseball, play college baseball, work with a lot of guys in pro ball. When I've been in Fenway park, I'm just use this crazy example. I've been in Fenway park and they have a seat painted right field. I was there a couple of years ago and that is where Williams famously Ted Williams hit a ball 518 feet and struck a guy in a straw hat, knocked his hat off his head, knocked him out or whatever. Well, I went to the seat, took a picture of it.

And I take a picture back and I've heard that David Ortiz a few years ago would look at that scene like, no way that, you know, so he's a guy playing from 1939 to 1960. He's taken a wooden bat. The ball is wound, however it is. But if you hit the ball there and some of the balls that Mantle hit Ruth hit, when you say all of those guys couldn't play today, I'm kind of like, I don't know if they can take that bat and hit a ball that far. And Bob Feller famously.

Leonard Lusky (28:56.024)
Right. Right.

Moore to Consider (29:14.133)
after the war and he was considered a shell as his former self throws through radar beams through the beams at the plate and it's 98 six. So if people think everybody's throwing harder today, I'm kind of like Nolan Ryan, you know, I don't, I'm not sure about that. Nolan Ryan hit 100.9 at the plate in 1973. So I say all that to say we can't really know other than a track record, what a horse is. The constant is distance and time. That's a constant.

Leonard Lusky (29:22.179)
Right.

Moore to Consider (29:43.4)
But all the conditions thrown in might say, man, a war had more to overcome. Maybe even Secretariat had more to overcome. But I say all that to set up. Do you believe, and I know we're biased, that Secretariat is the greatest horse of all time?

Leonard Lusky (29:57.72)
So that is a great question, okay? And I'm gonna answer it a few different ways. The arguments of who is better man of war or Secretariat still rage on. And I'm tell you what Penny said because people would ask her that all the time. She always answered it the same way. She said, know, horses of different eras can't be compared, too many differences. She said, but what's the difference? They were both great, just love them all.

Moore to Consider (30:00.147)
Yes, sir.

Moore to Consider (30:04.03)
Mm-hmm.

Moore to Consider (30:10.729)
Mm-hmm.

Leonard Lusky (30:27.79)
And that was her, you know, because they would say, how would he have done against Seattle slew or so forth? I really believe greatness, you know, it's so subjective. But to me, if the constant for greatness or the measurement for me is something that is done, no one's ever done and done over and over again.

In other words, you can be a one-time freak and do something and never have to do anything again. Is that a great performance? Yes. Does that make the horse great? Not necessarily. There are so many firsts of Secretariat. The track records, the record we just spoke about in the Derby, so many different things that yes, I think he was probably the greatest horse ever. think the Belmont.

performance was probably the greatest performance by a three-year-old ever. I think that there are other great horses, but I really do think he proved himself over and over. And you're right, the losses, a lot of people will say, he lost. And Penny once said to me, the first one, he didn't really know what he was doing. He got mugged.

we're gonna throw out. The second one, the Wooden Morial, that one was when he had the abscess. The third and the fourth one, which is after the Triple Crown, each one of those really had a very good explanation. The third one was the Whitney Stakes, I told you he was sick. That was right after the Triple Crown, and they had done a...

Moore to Consider (32:04.817)
Right?

Leonard Lusky (32:23.342)
Television deal with Saratoga everybody was expecting him and Penny once said to me, you know We all thought we knew he wasn't on the top of his game, but we all thought Secretariat at 80 % or 70 % Was better than any other horse at 100 % and we were wrong that that was a human error on our part Ronnie said I'm just grateful that I got to ride him because I knew something was off and I wanted to protect him bill knack

The rider talked about watching him go the post for the Whitney and diarrhea's coming out back of his legs. He just wasn't, he wasn't ready for that race. And yet he still just came in second and did a wonderful performance. The fourth one, which a lot of people point to, he was beaten fair and square by a horse named Proveout. And Proveout was a really good handicap, older handicapped horse.

He was hitting his moment at that time. His race was also a mile and a half. And I think at the time it was the second fastest time for the race behind Secretariat's Belmont. The excuse, if there is one, or the reason, Secretariat was actually training for a different race, mile eighth race. Riva was being pointed to that race, the Woodward State, so the mile and a half.

But as you said, Riva didn't like the mud. So it came up wet. They thought, well, we'll just flip-flop them. Secretariat will go in this race and Riva will go in the other one. And Secretariat had been training for a much shorter race. He wasn't prepared. He didn't have the time. And so he was a short horse, literally, on that day. And he was beaten legitimately on that day.

Moore to Consider (34:19.186)
think another thing, well, historically, another thing to add in for the audience is my memory is correct here. 25 years to me now at our age, like yesterday and all, but at the time Secretariat at one citation in 48, exactly 25 years had been the last to win a triple crown. So I remember again, I'm 11 years old, but I was hearing a lot of, well, that's one of those like triple crown and baseball. Nobody can do it anymore. It's the average home runs, RBI's can't be done.

And you think about minus a weather, Riva Ridge probably does it. I mean, it's a really good shot. He does it. And if he does it, all the thunder of Secretariat's lost. It could have been, could have been, yeah.

Leonard Lusky (34:55.342)
That's the root of it.

Leonard Lusky (35:00.236)
Well, you're exactly right. Could have been. I mean, you're right. So much would have changed. And Ronnie, you know, he swears if the track had been a dry track, Riva was much the best. So you just don't know. But the world, as you said, happens for a reason. And Secretariat, they got this big red horse with blue and white checks, you know, in a year where America needed healing. And he was the medicine.

Moore to Consider (35:19.825)
Mm-hmm.

Moore to Consider (35:28.582)
Yeah.

Moore to Consider (35:32.209)
And again, I do think that we, as a society, we're people in general. We project things that we liked upon it. But, uh, you know, okay, I'm a college teacher. 10 years ago, we got into this general discussion. I'm like, guys, I'm not trying to talk down. like, but you don't know what big is. I'm like, there was a time everyone went to the water cooler on Monday and they'd watched Ed Sullivan.

So you go back and look at the history, Elvis, the Beatles, everything, and then if you're a comedian, you had to go through Johnny Carson. Who are those people you're talking about? was like, okay, it's a different era, but I'm telling you, when somebody was big, Marilyn Monroe, James Dean, whoever, whoever was big was kind of known. It's like my mom knew in the eighties who Madonna was. She wasn't really approving of her, but she knew her. And you knew Prince and you knew Michael Jackson.

Leonard Lusky (36:16.492)
Right. Right.

Moore to Consider (36:22.606)
And I was like, so today we're so fractured because you're all on your phones or in your social media, seeing different things. I would say that back in that time, we didn't know their histories. We loved Mickey Mantle because we didn't know his alcoholism. We didn't know his womanizing or whatever. John F. Kennedy, for God's sake, John F. Kennedy, that was all guarded from us. And I think it was a better world because as we were kids, we could look up to people. We didn't know anything about them really. But I have to say.

Leonard Lusky (36:37.378)
Right, right.

Leonard Lusky (36:45.965)
Right.

Moore to Consider (36:49.296)
I really do think in this weird way, he was a matinee idol because he was so red and so beautiful and so big. He was a bigger horse. And when we project upon him, his walking into the room and hit the floodlights, he had so much character that I, yeah, he really, really did. And that wasn't just fake. You could watch him. was a, yeah, it was a personality.

Leonard Lusky (36:58.616)
Perhaps.

Leonard Lusky (37:08.654)
There is one. Yes.

Leonard Lusky (37:13.838)
No, so let me tell you a story. I got to meeting. I was 14, and I want to tell you the story. I was 14, so it was 74. I had gone to Claiborne where he had just become to stud, and I wanted to see all the horses. With their, the grooms at that time would bring the horses out to a, you were on the other side of a fence, but they would lead them out. And they brought out,

Moore to Consider (37:19.172)
Did you really? Okay, I was gonna ask that.

Moore to Consider (37:25.297)
Yeah!

Moore to Consider (37:40.388)
Right, right.

Leonard Lusky (37:43.138)
the Jinsky and Mr. Prospector and Riva Ridge, all were, I mean, I'm just blown away because they're so much bigger really in real life. And I thought they were all beautiful. And then they bring out Secretariat. Now, of course, I'm expecting or over expecting, you know, the Heralds to sing and, you know, the beam of light to shine.

Moore to Consider (38:08.431)
Yeah.

Leonard Lusky (38:08.895)
And here's what I remember. It was, was, it's just, it's like it happened yesterday. I seen, and he's, first of all, he's wide. He's so much wider than me. He looked like a tank. But he was coming, his head was down. He was walking slow. He was kind of like, da-da-da-da. And I was disappointed. I was really, you know, thinking this horse is going be on his toes. And, and he was like, da-da-da-da. And I said, well, you know, whatever.

Moore to Consider (38:19.578)
Big rear end.

Leonard Lusky (38:38.322)
And they brought him over and I broke my camera up and he went... And I said, no way. I was blown away. I'd heard he was a ham, but I put my camera down and he went right back to down and it crazy. And I brought it up. He did it again. And I'm laughing. I'm going, this horse knows. The groom says, he absolutely knows. Take the picture. And he was like that. He actually...

Moore to Consider (38:49.252)
Yes.

Moore to Consider (39:03.865)
So you witnessed it, because I've heard that story so much, if he saw or heard a camera, he's going to pose.

Leonard Lusky (39:06.51)
It happened to me. It absolutely happened to me.

Moore to Consider (39:13.271)
Now another story talking about the size I've heard is there's like, you know, the underneath, the right, the girth equipment. It's like, you know, go down to Dick's sporting goods kind of thing. And they had to especially make his because there's nothing would fit him. Is that true?

Leonard Lusky (39:20.171)
Earth.

Leonard Lusky (39:25.08)
Yes.

Leonard Lusky (39:28.962)
That's true, 72 inch was a normal girth, his was 76.

Moore to Consider (39:33.635)
Holy cow, four inches? So now, I've always heard too that he was like a hand and a half taller or heavier. Was he taller as well than the average?

Leonard Lusky (39:35.405)
Yeah.

Leonard Lusky (39:43.79)
He was a tall horse, but not overly tall. was 16 and one one half hands. Zenyatta, the great mare, she was 17, a real giant. Most horses are usually in that 15 to 16 range. So he was just a little bit bigger, but you're right, the girth was where so much larger.

Moore to Consider (39:48.079)
Right.

Moore to Consider (39:52.335)
Okay.

Moore to Consider (39:56.462)
Well.

Moore to Consider (40:08.239)
So now he did weigh more than the average thoroughbred racer. All right. So we talked about the heart earlier, that same veterinarian that did the autopsy. I remember on one of the documentaries that are like, so what are you saying? He goes, well, he was like, he was very abnormal, but like abnormally perfect. And they go, what do you mean? He goes, well, when you run, you are moving blood and taking in oxygen and

Leonard Lusky (40:11.266)
Yeah, absolutely.

Leonard Lusky (40:27.789)
Right.

Moore to Consider (40:33.998)
This is another thing at Meadow stables and, uh, Laura's gonna. I think post this with this, uh, with this podcast is they have these two posts that are at Meadow stables and they're like, Secretariat at stride length. you're like, Holy cow. So I looked it up and you can confirm this for me. I'm thinking stride length would be when hoof hits, when it hits again. Is that correct? It's 25 feet.

Leonard Lusky (40:57.415)
Right. Well, right.

Moore to Consider (41:00.91)
But when you're there and you're like I'm trying to imagine that same like hoof go from here to there in a stride Man 25 feet when you're standing like holy cow. He could make up. Yeah

Leonard Lusky (41:11.598)
Okay, so let me tell you more, you're gonna love this. So allegedly, a of war had the longest stride of 28 feet. And you know, that is an enormous stride. There were a other horses that have had some long strides. But that conversation, of course, during the Triple Crown, again, how big is secretariat stride? Let's measure it.

Moore to Consider (41:15.478)
I'm gonna love this. Go.

Moore to Consider (41:21.678)
Okay.

Moore to Consider (41:27.63)
It's a long way.

Leonard Lusky (41:41.046)
So they actually, as he was training for Pimlico after he won the Derby, he did a workout and they measured it and it came in, I want to say 26 and change feet. So a huge stride, but not as big as Man O' Wars. And of course, to this day, know, people will say, well, he didn't have the stride. What's interesting about this is Ronnie said, yeah, I remember that. He said, it's a bunch of bull.

And I said, why? And he said, well, what they measured him that day was his workout, which was his sprinting stride, basically, which was probably two feet less than when he really was digging in in a race. If they'd have measured him in the Belmont stakes, he said it would have been over 29, no question. So I think that's interesting.

Moore to Consider (42:32.302)
You know what? Well, another thing to throw in for what it's worth, I'm actually watching a guy the other day that was a sprint guy for humans and he's talking about how to increase time. And he made some interesting points because people think it's how fast in a sprinter, how fast are the legs working? How far is the stride? And he said what people miss is what the great sprinters do. And I'm listening to this guy that seems to know it's how much ground force you produce.

Leonard Lusky (42:59.901)
yeah.

Moore to Consider (43:00.312)
So it's, actually a bigger aspect of strength. It's what you propel in the stride. So that's sometimes why you see in a human, he doesn't look, he's running very fast. Like it's everything seems to be happening slow, but man, the watch says something else. And he goes, you could really be pumping really hard and get nowhere. So I say that in that. Secretariat, what we know he's very, very strong. So in those strides, if it's 26 or whatever.

Leonard Lusky (43:06.061)
Right.

Leonard Lusky (43:10.744)
That's right.

Leonard Lusky (43:14.817)
Right.

Moore to Consider (43:28.192)
What he's producing in ground force is probably greater than any other horse.

Leonard Lusky (43:32.046)
Yes, yes, and it's interesting too because Ronnie talked about the difference of Secretariat between the two-year-old and the three-year-old. And he said as he was learning as a two-year-old, he said he really would hit the ground hard. could, you know, you could feel it. But as he matured, he began to really glide over it. What you're saying, it was the same ground force, but it was a much smoother.

Moore to Consider (43:43.075)
Mm-hmm.

Moore to Consider (43:49.643)
Right.

Moore to Consider (43:54.346)
Mm-hmm.

Leonard Lusky (44:00.148)
operation and he was really becoming a much better runner. And he said, you know, what he would have done as a four year old, no telling. It just, he was just getting good when they retired him.

Moore to Consider (44:14.016)
Now, another thing for people, and you know, in so much of this history and God, you've been such a phenomenal guest. had so loved talking to you. This is so great. And a lot of this stuff I'm hearing is, you know, stories that I heard growing up where I grew up. But one of the other famous stories as depicted in the movie is that Penny Tweedy had this pact with the gentleman where they had, I guess it was bowl ruler. And then they were at have the two offspring and it turned out it was like a 17 year old horse and a three year old horse.

Leonard Lusky (44:38.115)
Right.

Moore to Consider (44:42.388)
And when the other gentleman wins the coin flip, he of course takes the horse from the younger. The brother turns to Penny like, okay, now we're done. goes, hold on. Cause she knew that the older horse, the older female had a incredible bloodline of champions that have come from her. That is that all not true.

Leonard Lusky (45:00.75)
Not true, so I'm and I'm glad you said this because I want to take a minute to absolutely it is So I'm glad you said this because just this month we actually on secretariat.com Released what we think is the the the real accounting. It's called toss of a coin Read that but I'm gonna give you the short version

Moore to Consider (45:08.31)
But that is how the movie depicted it. Right, okay, so tell us the real story.

Moore to Consider (45:16.832)
Mm-hmm.

Leonard Lusky (45:29.494)
It's complex, much more complex than people understand. And of course, for that reason, the movie simplified it. But it is really, it is an equation of math. They sent two mares two successive years. And the deal was, if you won the coin toss, you got the first choice the first year, and you got the second choice the second year. So they...

Moore to Consider (45:56.396)
Got it.

Leonard Lusky (45:57.998)
Each of the people would get a first choice and a second choice. The problem with that toss that year is only one of the mares on the second year, the Secretariat year, his dam something royal, got pregnant. The other one didn't. And this coin toss happened before the Secretariat was born, but after the breeding for the second time. So what I'm getting at is...

both Penny and the Phipps knew that the winner, the winning toss, would get the first choice, but no horse the second time. And the loser would get the second choice the first year and the second, and the only horse the second year, so they got two horses. So actually, both entities wanted to lose the toss because they would get two horses, whereas the winner would only get one. And that's

Moore to Consider (46:28.266)
Yeah?

Leonard Lusky (46:57.676)
The real story.

Moore to Consider (47:00.021)
Leonard Lusky (47:00.782)
And I know it's complicated, so we tried to...

Moore to Consider (47:03.734)
No, it's very complicated, but it made for a sexy way to do it in the movie to just go like, yeah, she knew better because she knew the old right. And that's not, well, then you've been great on this. What other, I saw what other myths that now I got you rolling on that. What other myths like from the movie, we know the Riva Ridge thing. We've talked about that. Now we've talked about the coin toss that was made to be, you know, really interesting type of thing. What else can you tell us like from the movie? It is. Yeah.

Leonard Lusky (47:09.452)
Right.

Leonard Lusky (47:16.43)
You

Leonard Lusky (47:20.482)
Right.

Leonard Lusky (47:27.65)
Well, the movie was great and it really did follow the arc of the challenges of Penny being a woman in a man's world. But when all this was happening, really it was fun because in doing the movie, actually I will tell you probably my favorite job ever.

They decided Disney, it was a brilliant move, the movie was coming out in October, so they decided to show the world premiere of the trailer, which would normally be about three months ahead of time, a little bit earlier, and they put it on the Derby broadcast, when 16 million people are watching the Derby. They brought in Penny and Diane Lane, Bob Costas interviewed them, they talked about the movie coming out, and then they showed it, And so I was...

Moore to Consider (48:13.535)
Right, right.

Leonard Lusky (48:24.6)
handling Penny and, you know, facilitating all this. And I'll never forget this, Disney, they called me, they said, you're from Louisville, right? And I said, yeah, why? And they said, well, Diane's in town. We'd really like to get some more publicity for the movie. Do think you could take her out to some of the big derby parties? And I'm like,

Moore to Consider (48:44.587)
going to ask you, did you get to talk to Diane Lane? So here it comes.

Leonard Lusky (48:47.756)
Best job ever. I was able to take her and quite, there were several of us from the movie actually, and hit all the big Derby parties. And she was absolutely delightful. She really was. And she really did capture Penny. She asked me for a lot of film footage. She did her due diligence. She really tried to capture a lot of Penny's mannerisms, which she did.

Moore to Consider (48:50.234)
my gosh, I'm so in love with her.

Yeah. Right.

Moore to Consider (49:03.978)
That's awesome. That's awesome.

Leonard Lusky (49:16.118)
So the movie was wonderful in that respect. When Penny, when you're asked, what did you not like? She goes to one scene. It's always, she said, I did not like this scene. It never would have happened. And it's when they are actually bathing Secretariat and sort of singing and dancing around him. It's after they're trying to do the syndication deal and you know, it wasn't going well.

Moore to Consider (49:24.318)
Mm-hmm.

Leonard Lusky (49:44.226)
She goes outside and she's bathing him. She said, this was a timely tuned athlete. We wouldn't have been laughing and singing and dancing. He was in training. That was not the way that was. We would never have disrespected him that way. So that was her least favorite scene. But most of it exactly on. She really enjoyed it.

Moore to Consider (50:07.978)
Yeah. I think that people, you know, it's a movie and I can't watch the end without balling. mean, when he, when he turns the last turn, just thinking about, Oh my gosh. I just think, cause if you don't know the story, anyone seeing that thinks he just broke his leg. You know, it's like, it's like all this buildup all of Diane Lane reading over his heroism. And then you're like, Oh my gosh, what happened to it? You know, then he comes around the turn and then the movie ends.

Leonard Lusky (50:15.885)
Yeah.

Leonard Lusky (50:27.875)
Right.

Leonard Lusky (50:35.981)
Yes.

Moore to Consider (50:37.703)
But with that, that whole kind of movie, so many people in the next generation, sort of finally understanding Secretariat, like what you just said, they don't recognize these people's lives were on the line. So, so this is not, like you say, playing around the front yard backyard with the horse. This guy's a multimillionaire and do the math with inflation.

Leonard Lusky (50:48.769)
Absolutely.

Leonard Lusky (50:54.589)
yeah.

Moore to Consider (51:05.373)
That's $6 million. What would it be now? 36 million. I mean, it would be, it'd be a lot different. And given the fact, like you said, Riva Ridge had probably to some great degree saved the farm. And it's part of the story that they don't really get into it, the movie, but yeah, I would imagine your horse. People are pretty serious people.

Leonard Lusky (51:06.85)
absolutely.

Yes.

Leonard Lusky (51:23.554)
No, they actually did because in the movie they depict, you know, the brother saying and the husband saying, are you sure you want to do this? Well, that happened. Why not sell the farm and we'll pay this off? And Penny said, absolutely not. And Riva was the horse that really proved that she knew what she was doing because like you said, he won the Derby and the Belmont. He was a champion.

Moore to Consider (51:32.861)
Yeah, that was true, right, right.

Leonard Lusky (51:49.802)
everything came together and that allowed them to continue on the Secretariat.

Moore to Consider (51:55.37)
So that would bring up a good point because that's another one of those things growing up in Caroline County. You'd hear people like, I used to go over and watch a match race. Riva Ridge was better than Secretariat. I'm thinking like, it was a year older. So maybe at some point when they were two and one, you might've seen something, but what about that? I mean, I know Riva Ridge is not the same class with Secretariat, but when we look at them coming out of the same stable,

Did they know that Secretariat, where I'm going is, okay, Riva Ridge has a great 72, it's 1972, but for the wet track. And I know I've read some of the accounts about him being such a late bloomer, Secretariat, know, he's kind of this pudgy teenager trying to figure it out. But did they know, how soon did they know? Oh yeah, do they know that when Riva Ridge is running that Secretariat's gonna be that much better? That's what I mean.

Leonard Lusky (52:48.346)
So, great question. to, and I'll, let me, I'm gonna start on a couple of ways. First of all, they didn't ever work against each other. They worked separately, which kept them separate. They did run against each other one time. It was a big moment because it was two Kentucky Derby winners, it was stable mates, it was supposed to be a match race for charity. It ended up being the first inaugural edition of the Marlboro Cup.

Moore to Consider (53:00.807)
Right. Right.

Moore to Consider (53:06.067)
The last year, right?

Leonard Lusky (53:18.536)
And so they did, and I'll come back to that in a moment. But Riva, he had won the Derby, he had won the Belmont in June, Secretariat's first start was not till July. So they began to think, they started to see him improving, right, more and more as the summer went on. Penny would tell the story that finally she got the call from Lucian, we're gonna start.

Moore to Consider (53:18.771)
Gotcha.

Leonard Lusky (53:47.064)
Secretariat you should be there and he wouldn't normally do that unless he had a lot of confidence So the the horse came in fourth and penny thought it was a really great performance considering he was squeezed he was running at the end and she said Lucian there was a bucket or something and he kicked it in frustration after the race and she said why and he said He was much better than that

So he knew that he had a very special horse. At the same time that Secretariat begins his career and he gets this winning streak that goes through the end of the year, Riva raced once more in July 1, the Hollywood Derby, and then he went sour. It was a gut-wrenching race, and the last three or four races of Riva's 72 year, he really, didn't do well. He didn't hit the board.

Moore to Consider (54:17.894)
Mm-hmm.

Moore to Consider (54:44.753)
Right.

Leonard Lusky (54:45.358)
And he did not win horse of the year. He didn't even win a three-year-old champion because he went our secretariat did. So you see these, you know, differing ways they're going. Now as a four-year-old, Riva started coming back. And in fact, he did race and there's some records he still holds, but they finally came together in this race and raced against each other.

Moore to Consider (54:49.083)
Secretariat did, right? I mean, right.

Moore to Consider (54:58.535)
There go, yeah.

Leonard Lusky (55:12.374)
And interestingly, Ron Turcotte rode both. So he had first choice of who to ride. And, and, know, typically in races like that, the jockey will choose the older horse, the four year old over a three year old for the reasons we said he's more mature. But he said, no, you know, I'm sticking with Secretariat. And they were both coming off a loss. Secretariat off the loss when he was sick. Revo was upset with Saratoga on the grass. So they, there was some question mark anyway.

The race is fascinating. If you ever can see it, Penny once described it. Riva goes to the lead, comes around the turn, looks like he's home free, and then you see Secretariat looming up on the turn. And there is a film crew that showed from the outer rail watching this. And you see it in slow motion. Secretariat and Riva Ridge. Secretariat's coming to Riva Ridge.

gets with him and then goes ahead of him before it goes to the normal shot. What's so interesting, their strides are in synchronization. They're both taking at the same time. So you see almost exactly a tandem. But what you see is Secretariat getting about another six to eight inches with every stride compared to Revo. And you really see the difference of the power or the length.

Moore to Consider (56:21.116)
Mm-hmm.

Moore to Consider (56:34.191)
Okay.

Moore to Consider (56:37.979)
Right.

Leonard Lusky (56:40.106)
in slow motion. really does show. But Reboot is great.

Moore to Consider (56:43.856)
Wow. Well, you know, the pictures I see of Riva Ridge he does appear to be so much lankier. He just doesn't seem to be the same horse. Beautiful horse. You know, beautiful horse, but, and God love him. I remember how much he meant to our community when he 72. Cause like, Hey, horse right down the road is doing this. And then when Secretariat comes, it does seem, you know, I'm 10, 11 at the time, but I do remember thinking like, wait a we got another horse coming out there and he's even better.

Leonard Lusky (56:51.597)
Yes.

Leonard Lusky (57:09.208)
Yes.

Moore to Consider (57:09.741)
So you think like, what's the weirdness of Carolina County? only thing that really had John Wilkes Booth got shot there, you know, and other than the Secretariat, that's pretty much it. And, yeah, it was, it was a crazy time to be, you know, from Virginia and the overall impact on the United States as we've discussed. Now I have, go ahead.

Leonard Lusky (57:17.005)
Right.

Leonard Lusky (57:26.796)
Well, have you ever heard of uppercase? You ever heard that? So just to tell you how dominant the Meadow stable was in 72, Riva won the bluegrass stakes, you know, going into the Derby. He was the favorite. He was the juvenile champion. There's a horse that they also bred named uppercase and he won the Florida Derby and then went to the Wood Memorial. I think he won that too.

Moore to Consider (57:31.213)
No.

Leonard Lusky (57:56.3)
So the Meadow had won every significant prep race on the East Coast coming into the Derby. Uppercase was a really good horse, but he didn't race after he got hurt. They pointed him towards the Preakness and ended up selling him. And he ended up, I think overseas, but in his own life.

Moore to Consider (58:09.715)
Moore to Consider (58:19.333)
Now was he the same age as Riva Ridge? Okay, gotcha. Got it, got it, okay.

Leonard Lusky (58:22.028)
Yeah, he was a statement. Yeah. So they had these two great three-year-olds burning up the big races. Then they have this two-year-old coming behind, and it's even better. was, as Penny called it, the camelot of racing. It was a great time.

Moore to Consider (58:33.071)
Yeah.

Moore to Consider (58:39.046)
All right. What is, I'm sure that horses have been raised since the beginning of time, but when you, when you think of the history of United States horse racing, when is it's real pioneering days? Like when does it really start?

Leonard Lusky (58:54.178)
So another, that's a really tough question. A lot of people will say that it really started to come to its own after Prohibition, after there was a ban in the early teens of even gambling. Some people say that's, once that was lifted, it came on. you know, for most old timers, they'll say the 40s and 50s. I mean, it was the sport. It was the most...

Moore to Consider (59:08.345)
Mm-hmm.

Moore to Consider (59:23.802)
Yeah.

Leonard Lusky (59:24.174)
bigger than baseball, bigger than any other sport. Right. Yes. Yes. And so most people will say 50s and 60s, it began to decline. And they said, well, many people will attribute Secretariat to bringing back interest in the 70s. And then of course you had affirmed in Seattle slough. a lot of people, spectacular bid. A lot of people say, well, that was the Renaissance, the golden age. So

Moore to Consider (59:27.395)
It was heyday of boxing too. people watch Friday night fights and they watch horse racing. Yeah.

Moore to Consider (59:48.367)
Mm-hmm.

Leonard Lusky (59:54.146)
You hear that a lot, but since then, a lot of people have said, yeah, you know, it's declining. The record is interesting because I agree with you. I don't think anyone will ever touch the Belmont. The Derby, they've come close. There's been one horse, but not real close. The Preakness, actually, they've come within a whisker. Swiss Skydiver was the Philly in 2020.

The Preakness was later in the year, she was more developed, but she only missed Secretariat's record by tenth of a second. So that one may fall.

Moore to Consider (01:00:32.526)
Yeah, but even in that measurement, the thing is it's not horses running around trying to beat the track record and they get one of them. got all three of them, right? So it still doesn't change the fact that the odds of any one horse getting breaking all three is unless something crazy. All right. Something else I want to go back to that you started with earlier, you talked about these two and three year olds and

Leonard Lusky (01:00:43.086)
You got all three of them.

Moore to Consider (01:00:58.596)
But you say you think the physical maturity, because horses, a thoroughbred, they're going to live anywhere between 25 and 30 years, correct? Okay. So if we're talking about any athlete, sports in general, the times that people peak in humans, you're saying probably five to seven is probably a much three to five.

Leonard Lusky (01:01:05.4)
Right.

Leonard Lusky (01:01:16.718)
No, three to five, four being the peak.

Moore to Consider (01:01:23.828)
Okay. And then it's a fall off. Okay. So how do we get into the three year old thing being kind of the prime time and not four.

Leonard Lusky (01:01:25.452)
Right, typically,

Leonard Lusky (01:01:34.796)
Well, well, I think for your, mean, had he raced it for, I think we would have seen even a better horse.

Moore to Consider (01:01:42.03)
But I'm asking like Kentucky Derby, what are the rules? Can you run as a four year old? That's what I thought. All right. So I'm saying it's kind of put the governors on it. They've kind of put this line that why his horse racing? Has there ever been, I guess what I'm asking, has there ever been a push to like, Hey, let's go ahead and start making for the year, not.

Leonard Lusky (01:01:45.195)
no, just only as a three-room. Right.

Leonard Lusky (01:01:58.382)
So, hit a wonderful point. There's been a lot of talk in horse racing that now you're asking horses to go too far too soon and it's hurting horses, it's breaking them down, those sorts of things. So there has been talk about the proper way to do it would be to have these big races like the Derby and Preakness and Belmont at four. Tradition will probably never let that happen, but probably even more so

Moore to Consider (01:02:12.173)
Mm-hmm.

Moore to Consider (01:02:20.802)
Yeah.

Leonard Lusky (01:02:28.448)
In tradition, it's the economics. If someone spends God knows how much on a stud fee, takes the time to develop it, and they want to start getting a return on investment as a two-year-old, and that's when they start racing to begin with. Probably if it were just the development physical of the horse, they should all start as a three-year-old, but that is not the

Moore to Consider (01:02:35.789)
Yeah, yeah, totally.

Moore to Consider (01:02:53.739)
No. And you know, the other thing that struck me as I asked that all of this mystique, because I don't, I don't even think it's just an American thing, but it's clearly an American thing. And I was talking about, I mean, baseball is a game of records, everything. Like when Ruth had the home run hitting and the Marist broke it and all that, everything is tied around numbers. That's just what we do as Americans. So if you changed all these dynamics to four year olds and they broke Secretariat, people would be up in arms.

Leonard Lusky (01:03:13.933)
Yes.

Moore to Consider (01:03:21.111)
Well, of course some four year old outran him. He had an extra year, right? So.

Leonard Lusky (01:03:22.508)
Well, and that's why I was making the case about the filly who came within a tenth of a second. She almost broke it and you would have heard that because she raced the Preakness in, it was October or whatever it was. So she was six months older than any other three-year-old would have been. Now she was at a great performance that day and she was a great filly, but it isn't exactly apples to apples.

Moore to Consider (01:03:38.403)
Mm-hmm.

Moore to Consider (01:03:50.156)
You know, it's a strange story. I'm going to tell you. I got a friend of mine on a, I'm not going to drop any names, but he's rural farm. Great guy. actually taught him in a college and he has like five horses and he's talking about how if he doesn't feed the old female that's 15 years old first, she whines and screams and hollers. They all have these personalities. So he has this one horse that looks strangely different than the others. Cause the other ones are kind of plow horses. God bless them. But this one horse is just stunning looking. And I'm like,

Leonard Lusky (01:04:09.112)
Yes.

Moore to Consider (01:04:20.194)
What's the story with him? goes, well, he's thoroughbred. Like, Oh, that horse is a thoroughbred. goes, yeah. He goes, you want to hear a crazy thing? Well, he goes, he's in the secretariat bloodline. And I said, well, what's the story? He goes, he was 0 and 6. That was it. And he said, whatever that thing is that makes them either run or compete, he didn't have it. So he passed through some hands and I said, I would take him on the farm. I mean, it wasn't like glue factory, you the horrible thing you'd say, but it was kind of like, I ended up with him. I'm like, well, what's he like? He goes, Moody. He's like Moody.

But he said, whenever it was, he certainly had that thing. We're talking about elite athletes. A third brand is not a dud, but he said whenever that mechanism kicks in that makes him competitive in 0 and 6, they just realized he didn't have it.

Leonard Lusky (01:04:58.84)
Right.

Leonard Lusky (01:05:04.962)
Right. Well, you know, we talked about the heart and we talked about his conformation. He had a beautiful conformation. His conformation though was unusual for a thoroughbred because it was shorter, more like a quarter horse than a thoroughbred, which are more long and lankier. And he was built like a fullback, not a halfback, you know? So there's a lot of that going on.

Moore to Consider (01:05:18.038)
Mm-hmm.

Moore to Consider (01:05:26.413)
Exactly. Good way to put it, yeah.

Leonard Lusky (01:05:31.554)
But again, the autopsy with the heart, many people, in fact, do you remember the controversy about Jason Kelsey and what he said about Secretariat? you aware that? Well, after the show, can, Jason, in one of his podcasts, who is, you know, he's pretty outspoken, talked about how he thought Secretariat was on steroids because he had this enlarged heart. That's what he said.

Moore to Consider (01:05:43.583)
No.

Leonard Lusky (01:06:00.738)
which is a typical trait of steroids and it caused this firestorm from fans saying you are absolutely crazy and so forth. And unfortunately, people don't understand what the autopsy showed. His heart was perfect. It wasn't enlarged from any drug or anything. It was just a larger heart. was abnormally large in its size, but not in its pathology. So,

He just basically had a bigger engine. And that is one of the things that, you know, is that trait genetic? There are some people that swear it is. Others say it's not. But at this point, now, you know, secretariat's descendants of descendants of descendants, there's probably, you know, 800,000 descendants of secretariat that have raced now. So of course they're not all gonna have, you know, whatever that.

Moore to Consider (01:06:59.093)
Well, and, and as, and as the stud horse, he hasn't had like a super successful offspring, has he?

Leonard Lusky (01:06:59.554)
that trade is.

Leonard Lusky (01:07:07.022)
So that's another, this is another, I guess, kind of a myth. Everyone expected biggest price ever, he's gonna do that. And he had a couple of champions, Risen Star was one, Lady's Secret was another, but he didn't ever duplicate himself, which was probably an unfair expectation. And there was a time when people said, he's kind of a flop, right? What ended up happening though,

Moore to Consider (01:07:15.36)
circle crown winners. Yeah.

Moore to Consider (01:07:29.066)
Who does?

Moore to Consider (01:07:34.634)
Mm-hmm.

Leonard Lusky (01:07:37.71)
that skipped a generation and his daughters produced the three big stud lines that are still there today. APND and it is still happening and we try to track it every year but in the Derby as you said there's 20 something horses and every year 18 to 19 of them have Secretariat of blood in it.

Moore to Consider (01:07:46.826)
Gotcha. Gotcha.

Moore to Consider (01:08:03.166)
I'm gonna go totally off base here. I'm gonna probably get all kinds of nasty comments or whatever but as a baseball guy I can't believe the number of six foot five inch pitchers I work with I'm an attorney used to play representation for example one night I'm in a town I'm with the White Sox scout that was a buddy of mine and we're going to see the flavor of the week kid just started hitting nine he's six foot five and this guy comes over he might be five five

And the guy goes, Hey, Mr. Whatever. And to my friend. I said, Hey, how's it going? So he walks away. he takes the dad, like that's the dad of that kid. Mom shows up. She's five 11. I can't believe the number of times. And, famously, Wilt Chamberlain, who was seven feet, one inches tall, had five, 10 parents, both of them, dad and mom. But mom's father was seven one or seven feet or something. And it was kind of the same thing with Michael Jordan. Dad wasn't very tall, but mom was tall and height on the mom's side.

Leonard Lusky (01:08:47.168)
Right.

Leonard Lusky (01:08:54.819)
Right.

Moore to Consider (01:08:57.736)
So when you say the thing about it, going to the female bloodline, you know, I used to talk to scouts and they'd see a big, they'd see a kid that was blooming and they'd say, well, how big is the dad? I'm like, forget how big the dad is. I want to see the mom side of the family. And it never fails. My dad was six, two. I'm barely five, nine. My mom was tiny. Her father was tiny. Everybody in my father's line of the family is six feet to six, six. And so I've always wondered if there's any real science with that, but it does seem the female bloodline is what matters.

Leonard Lusky (01:09:08.184)
Hey! Hey! Hey!

Leonard Lusky (01:09:24.11)
Well, it's funny you said that Christopher Cheney, Penny's father, was sort of a pioneer in that area. When most people would say, who's the big stud? We want to send it there. His idea was the mare is equally, if not more so important. So he really assembled this wonderful broodmare band that produced these horses like Riva, and uppercase, and Secretariat. So that was the philosophy of the meadow.

Moore to Consider (01:09:40.864)
Who's mama?

Moore to Consider (01:09:54.144)
Yeah, and I think in professional sports, know, I've been around it where like you get the major league player and then his son never lives. It's a tough part. It's a tough part of being the son of a major leaguer. And everybody's like, you know, dad missed on like, well, the fact that he married a person that maybe doesn't have the same kind of, you know, athletic genetics, he's that great because his mother was probably a great athlete or came from a line of athletes. It doesn't mean he's then going to have a spouse and have children that are going to produce that again.

Leonard Lusky (01:10:16.994)
Yeah, yeah.

Leonard Lusky (01:10:23.715)
Right.

Moore to Consider (01:10:23.956)
And that's why I think the freak show of freak shows in major league baseball was like Bobby Bonds to Barry Bonds. Cause both of them were phenomenal baseball. mean, like from a purely athletic standpoint, it's crazy that those two guys were that good. There had been fathers and sons. mean, the Boons were grandfather, son and sons, but it's rare. It's, rare that the, yeah. So in the horse racing, I know what I'm putting humans to horses here, but I do think that it makes a lot of sense that.

Leonard Lusky (01:10:29.782)
Right, Yeah.

Leonard Lusky (01:10:37.357)
Yes.

Leonard Lusky (01:10:41.091)
Right.

It is really good.

Moore to Consider (01:10:53.009)
You kind of might want to take more of a look at where the female line is and what, what kind of champions have come through her line. And, because again, that mother of secretariat did have an incredible line of champions, right? Are really good horses.

Leonard Lusky (01:11:05.4)
Well, she was blue blood. She actually had a horse in 1962. So this would have been 11 years before. He was the favorite for the Derby and he got hurt on the eve of the race, but he very well could have won the Derby. His name was Sir Gaylord.

Moore to Consider (01:11:14.228)
Yeah.

Moore to Consider (01:11:20.167)
wow. wow.

Well, Mr. Lusky, I've been doing this podcast thing here for a little bit of time. You may be my favorite. I've been saying right up here. You're my, you're my favorite guest I've had on the, the fact that we share the love that we do for this phenomenon in American history. In closing, please, please say anything else you'd like to say on the way out, what you'd like to say about Secretariat and your career.

Leonard Lusky (01:11:33.976)
Well...

Leonard Lusky (01:11:44.76)
Well...

Leonard Lusky (01:11:48.408)
So working for Penny, know, that was a dream come true. I'm a horse fan. I grew up in Louisville. To get to know her and then of course the team. Ron, who's one of my dearest friends, and Charlie Davis, and Jim Gaffney, and Bill Nack, who wrote the book. mean, getting to know these people has just been such a privilege. And the one thing that we all have kept in common, and I say that as a newcomer basically,

Penny said, you know, it's important to tell the story. When you have a good horse, it's your obligation to talk about it. She said that up to the day she died, to everybody who had a Derby winner. You now have an obligation. Promote your horse, promote your sport. And we're just telling the story that I'm trying to continue. hope it one, if one viewer on your podcast says,

Well, I want to learn more about Secretariat, go to Secretariat.com or go to the ESPN documentary. It's wonderful because you really get to see something that was very, very special. And he was.

Moore to Consider (01:12:59.006)
I think it's a blessing from above. really do. The fact that we're meeting today to talk about this wonderful phenomenon that happened, you know, on American soul in the county I grew up in, which was really phenomenal for me because of that connection I had to it. But it wasn't a time in American history that he truly did galvanize the country. Oh, man, when he run the belt, when he won the belt, we were all in the house screaming, my dad, my mom, we were all because, you know, we knew he's like he's got a chance to win the Triple Crown.

Leonard Lusky (01:13:18.26)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Leonard Lusky (01:13:27.756)
Yeah.

Moore to Consider (01:13:28.168)
And then that would happen. What was the, what was the line from the commentator? He's running like a tremendous machine right? Right. Yeah. And, and I didn't know anything about racing. I don't know much more now, but when he hit that back stretch, like this is something special. He, he is so out running horses of his make. This has got to be something special.

Leonard Lusky (01:13:33.39)
Tremendous machine. Secretariat is right now.

Leonard Lusky (01:13:44.251)
yeah.

Leonard Lusky (01:13:49.0)
Absolutely. You know, a lot of people will talk about where were you when blank when the president? Well, that was a moment. I know exactly where I was. I was at the mall and a Tandy's watching on a little foreign screen. The Belmont stakes on a black and white screen.

Moore to Consider (01:13:55.462)
Yes.

Moore to Consider (01:14:08.861)
God bless you. God bless you. And God bless you, sir. Really. Leonard Lusky got some history there with uh, with Penny Chenery, Tweety and Secretariat got to meet him, got to meet the horse. And I thank you so much. And I let's stay in touch. Let's stay in touch here going into the future. Okay. And.

Leonard Lusky (01:14:24.046)
Please, please do. Do you live in the Virginia area still?

Moore to Consider (01:14:30.727)
Yeah. live in Williamsburg now and I'm planning to move back to Virginia beach. I love Williamsburg. It's been great, but I got a lot of connections to Virginia beach and lived there for 19 years. But again, grew up between DC and Richmond in, in Carolina. Right. Well, if a lot of people want to know where Meadowstables is, if they see the Eiffel tower and they see the King's dominion. And I'll tell you, I'm old enough to remember that I think the family had a little bit of problem and there was a little bit of back and forth with the original.

Leonard Lusky (01:14:32.088)
Okay.

Leonard Lusky (01:14:51.575)
Right.

Moore to Consider (01:15:00.551)
King's dominion because they were firing fireworks and disturbing the horses.

Leonard Lusky (01:15:03.65)
Well, I think there was a little concern about all that when King's Dominion came in.

Moore to Consider (01:15:10.462)
And they originally had the lion country safari, which was crazy because you could go out and see lion and everything. And it was, it's pretty amazing. Well, God bless you, sir. I really appreciate everything. Let's stay in touch. Love to do a show again very soon. Thank you.

Leonard Lusky (01:15:12.878)
All right.

Leonard Lusky (01:15:19.96)
Thank you.

Leonard Lusky (01:15:24.366)
Always happy to be there.