Renaming a Legacy: The Washington Redskins Story

Jack Moore (00:01.13)
Welcome to the more to consider podcast coming up with the name, you know, it's a play on my name more M O O R E of course. And then to consider what I wanted to do in a podcast to start with is discuss things that I think have been for some time, uh, unspeakable can't talk about things like, like that. And, know, with my Kennedy assassination background, I mean, it's not exactly like, uh, that's politically incorrect to get into discussions about it.

But there are lanes when it comes to even the Kennedy assassination that you're a kooky nut, you know, or it's almost become clearly now in the Kennedy assassination realm to say that you believe Oswald did it, you're a kooky nut. It's, it's become like the conspiracy accepted thing, but in the space of being able to discuss things, something has really personally hit me. And I say personally, and I'm going to get into my history. And I don't think it's the.

Issue it was five years ago when we were going through a different period, but it's out there. If you grew up in the region where I grew up with what I have on today, what you see behind me, you may know some of where this is going. So this is out two days ago. Ending months of speculation. Washington commander's owner, Josh Harris has confirmed that the NFL team will not be changing back to redskins.

despite a vocal faction of fans calling for the controversial name to be returned. Harris has put to rest any speculation about changing the team's Speaking of speaking at a postseason press conference on Monday, and of course, you probably know the team went 12 and five regular season this year, knocked off the Buccaneers in the first round of playoff, knocked off the number one seed Detroit and made it to the NFC championship game.

With a new quarterback whose beautiful Jaden Daniels had this rookie of the year season, there was a lot of energy in the DC area. A five-win team went to five losses and flipped it from five and 12 to 12 and five and made the playoffs and had a deep run. They made it within one game of the Super Bowl. For the first time, that type of depth. Well, the last playoff victory was 2005 under Joe Gibbs.

Jack Moore (02:19.448)
And they had not had a playoff win since 2005 and very few playoff appearances in the last 30 plus years. lot of people know that the Washington franchise, formerly known as the Redskins, won three Super Bowls, went to five, and they won the three Super Bowls in an 11 year period. So in the eighties, it was the heyday. It was the beauty time for the Washington Redskins. Then it fell to nothing for 30 years. So in this light of Washington having

great deal of success this year. says, Commanders is Josh Harris, the new owner. He said, Commanders is here to stay. I think it's now embraced by our team, by our culture, by our coaching staff. So we're going to, we're going with that. Harris said, stressing that the name has gained meaning for the franchise, despite some initial backlash from fans when the team rebranded.

Harris believes the name now represents qualities like toughness, great football skills, strong teamwork. It's really meaningful that the name is growing in meaning. The team, so give a little history. The team's rebranding began in 2020 when Washington retired the name Redskins, a move that has been a point of contention for years due to its offensive connotations towards Native Americans.

After two years as the Washington football team, the franchise officially adopted commanders in February, 2022 under the then ownership of then former owner, Dan Snyder. Harris, who took over ownership in 2023 had made it clear from the start that there would be no return to the old name for obvious reasons. The old name can't come back. stated August, 2024, although many fans still express disappointment with the new name, including a poll.

In April, 2024, showing that 58 % of local commanders fans disliked the change. They don't like the name is what it's saying. The team has experienced success under the commander's banner. Rookie quarterback, Jaden Daniels again helped Washington to the NFC championship game. All right. So as we approach this subject, to give, I've got to give some background. And again, I've said on a, on a previous podcast, this is a new podcast.

Jack Moore (04:40.579)
that Laura and I have just started. And it's going to be what I want to talk about. It's going to be what I have interest in. JFK assassination was something I've said from my childhood. I had an interest in, I grew up 70 miles from Washington, DC. So I grew up in Bowling Green, Virginia, tiny town between Richmond and Fredericksburg right off I-95. Matter of fact, Caroline County, where I grew up, all the old major roads run through it. 301-95, Route 1.

Everything's route 17. All of these roads run through Caroline. So DC's an hour and change away. So when I'm a kid, I got a next door neighbor who each Monday would lay out the newspaper and point to players and the freelance star out of Fredericksburg. We get the Washington Post at times. Richmond times is bad to get huge coverage of the Redskins. And that's what I watched as a kid. I watched the Redskins. I fell in love with Sonny Jurgensen and he's in one of the pictures up here behind me.

I tell you a lot of sunny stuff here in a moment, but I fall in love with Jurgensen, Bobby Mitchell, Charlie Taylor, Sam Huff. There's these players. I'm, literally four or five years old when I really began to love the Redskins. So the neighbor would come over, point things out. I learned the name. learned the numbers and my father was sheriff and I'm at the sheriff's offices. I did sometimes in the afternoon, my mom would take my sister and I up to the sheriff's office and one day.

I'm shy of six. I just know I'm somewhere in the six neighborhood. I'm up there and the man comes in and my memory of it was he said something about Sam Huff and I'm like, no, Sam Huff went to West Virginia and it's pre-internet. Nobody knows. Somebody has to go grab something and look at something to find out. I correct the guy and I'm like almost six years old. And he looks at my dad and he goes, that young man needs to go to a red skin game. He knows all about the redskins. So my father, uh, somehow

or this guy reaches out to a person in town that everyone knew had season tickets. So on October 6th, 1968, and it is in that picture up there, there is my first ticket. It says DC Stadium. It doesn't say RFK because it had not yet been named RFK. So Bobby Kennedy shot June 6th, 1968. My first game is October 6th, 1968. And in January of 1969,

Jack Moore (07:06.89)
The team decides, or I think it was the TIA senators were certainly involved with this too. The city decides to name it after Senator Robert F. Kennedy, who'd been assassinated the summer before. Well, I went to get seats from state. The stadium is now in different stages of, they're demolishing the stadium. They're taking it to the ground and they pulled all the seats out and sold them. So a year ago, I find out and I make this payment, which then.

You show on the internet, you made the payment, you get to pull your seats out. So they have the seats in a parking lot beside the stadium. And I start talking to some people. And this one guy comes up and he goes, dude, you know more about this stuff than anybody I've ever seen. And I go, well, yeah, like that stadium that's coming down. I went there the first time in 1968 and people around like 68. And I'm like, yeah, I six years old. And then it hit me. And I said, in 69, I saw Vince Lombardi live. Vince Lombardi on the sideline.

when he coached the one year before he passed with cancer in 1970. And then it hit me. That was the home opener. The very first time the Washington Redskins played in Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Stadium, I was at that game. it like, wow, it hit me all of a sudden that I'm in that first game. And I have over here, I won't pull it out right now, but I have the program cover from that game that in 1999, 30 years later,

I went to an autograph show, I presented it to Sonny Jurgensen and I said, Mr. Jurgensen, here's a program cover from the game I saw you play. And he went, where did you get this son? And I was like, I was at the game. He goes, wow. And he got a little choked up and he said, my season with Lombardi was probably my greatest season ever. Most enjoyable, rewarding. He signs it. So I have an autograph copy of the program cover from October 12th, 1969, Ranskin's Cardinals.

And we won that game. see where this is going. It's a big, huge part of me growing up. And we hit the eighties. Well, we go through the seventies, George Allen's, uh, turns the team around, go into the eighties, Joe gives 81 to 92, four super bowls, win three. There's this huge one. You expect to be in the playoffs every year. And the cook family runs into some real problems after Jack Kent cook dies in the mid nineties. The family struggles to maintain ownership.

Jack Moore (09:30.833)
And it ends up going to Daniel Snyder, who at the time was like 35 years of age. And he gets together the Capitol with some partners and they buy the team. He's a principal owner. And then I've never seen a person ruin anything. Is this a word unruinable? If there was ever anything unruinable, was from 1966 into the nineties, the Washington Redskins had sellout.

There used to be, they'd let fans laughed about it. There was a waiting list of people to get season tickets. That was 35 to 40,000 people long. And there were fights in wheels. There were, when, people died with season tickets, their kids were fighting over the tickets. That was the most important thing to have in Washington when the team was in the city. And if you ever look at the configuration, it goes Lincoln Memorial. I'm sorry, actually I'll go.

Arlington cemetery across Memorial Bridge, the Lincoln Memorial onto the Washington monument, through the mall to the Capitol and in a straight line in a circle out at the end of that straight line is RFK Stadium. It was designated in Congress in the 1930s to be the stadium of the United States. Then it fell. It was going to be for the Olympics. And then in 1960 ish when the Redskins and senators were playing in Griffith Stadium, it got to be too old. And they're like,

Let's go ahead put the stadium where we originally were going to put the United States stadium. And there it is. So it was in the city eventually in a fight to keep the team in the city or not. It ended up in Landover, Maryland, about 12 miles from the center of the city. And, of course now it's famously a dump. it was FedEx and now it's Northwest stadium. Probably a lot of you know all the history. So we get into the question of I'm a kid in Virginia.

Growing up 70 miles from DC, I know a lot of the history of the team. I know my personal experience. And then this isn't the first time I heard it when, when the name was lost in 2020, actually when the Redskins went in 1991 to play in Minneapolis in the Superbowl against the Bills. I remember there were a lot of Native American groups that were making the news because they were outside the stadium and they were protesting the name.

Jack Moore (11:55.098)
I heard some of it in the eighties, then it came back in 91 because they were in the spotlight, because they were in the Superbowl. Then as they got bad, it's not that it went away, but it certainly lost a lot of horsepower in the media because who cares? They're terrible during the nineties into the two thousands. And Joe Gibbs comes back and every once in a while you would hear it pop up in the history of when this happened.

Snyder is going down in flames. Everybody sort of knows that Daniel Snyder is not a popular owner. There have been numerous mistakes and hiring coaches, getting too involved in personnel, being too personally involved in draft choices and that type of thing. So he blows out coach after coach after coach. He comes in with North Turner, fires him. Terry Rabisky is a coach for three games. He goes and gets Marty Schottenheimer.

Schottenheimer has an 0 and 5 start turns around 8 and 8. He decides to fire for Steve Spurrier. Steve Spurrier two years. That's a mess goes back and gets Joe Gibbs. You may see the towel I have back here 21 that I was at Sean Taylor's last game in 2007 and I was at the game after his death and got that towel. So Sean Taylor was famously a young 24 year old safety that

without question would be a Hall of Fame. He's the greatest player I ever saw in person. He dies tragically shot in his own home and dies. Joe Gibbs retires as a, I think in large part, he's on a five-year contract. It's year four, Sean Taylor's killed. The whole team's heartbroken. They make the playoffs and then everything falls apart. So they go through the Jim Zorn a couple of years. They go to Shanahan. They go to Jay Gruden. It's just on and on.

coach carousel, quarterback carousel, everything's a mess. So in the midst of the George Floyd basically riots throughout the country and the protests and the call for social justice, a lot of the minority partners, mean, minority and ownership percentage go to Snyder and now they kind of have him by the throat and they're like, we're going to pull this and pull this and pull this, meaning corporate sponsorship. If you don't change the name, he yells uncle.

Jack Moore (14:16.074)
He had famously five or six years before said, we will never change the name Redskins. Put that in quotes and put that in capital letters, never change. And again, he's unpopular. Now he's getting corporate sponsorship pulled. So in July, 2020, I'm coming out the front door. I got a friend from North Carolina that grew up a fan and he goes, Hey, did you just hear the word? And I'm like, what? And he was like, they're pulling the name. And I'm like, no. And then he's like, yeah, it's done.

So then we go to Washington football team for a couple of years, and then we go to commanders. One last thing I'll say on that. there were a lot of people that talked about, the red tails as a tribute to black aviators in world war II. There was the red wolves that came out, which a lot of people like, and they're like, yeah, you got a little bit of native American culture with the wolf, you know, thing. Maybe we can get a nice little transition, keep the team colors.

Put a pretty wolf. Everybody loves, I think everybody should love a wolf. I know I do. So, you know, I liked that, you know, red wolves and then commanders came out. So RG three, which I have a helmet for him over here. I was a big fan of Robert Griffin third and you know, it kind of went sideways for him clearly as lot of dynamics. That's another whole show, but he was on a podcast last summer and he said an interesting thing that I kind of wondered about.

He said that he had seen polling that showed commanders was like the least popular name and all of these names being considered. And that he thought Snyder took that name because he was still in charge as a final screw you to everybody on the way out. And I, you know, I have nothing to support that other than what Griffin said. So I was hearing Red Wolves. I was hearing some other connections.

to some things which I think were fine tributes to groups of people or the region in general. And then bam, commanders, which I know it has a military connotation and I'm actually wearing one of the Redskins military salute to troops that I have in a hoodie. yeah, commanders, but you know, it just wasn't popular. So the polling I see it's like hugely unpopular.

Jack Moore (16:39.069)
red wolves, apparently a warriors came out high too, but then they had the basketball team issue. And are you still running the native American thing? All right. I've gone through all that. Let me say this that I never heard brought up. I don't hear it in media. All these knowledgeable Redskin and people I've never heard anybody mention this, what I'm getting ready to say. And I think it might be, I don't know why it wasn't the obvious discussion at the time.

Right now the Kansas City Chiefs are in the Super Bowl again. They have maintained chiefs. They have an arrowhead on the side of their helmet. They have people wearing Indian headdress in the stands. They're tomahawk chopping in the stands. Nobody says no. There hasn't been an uprising. Well, there's been some noise, but it continues to happen. The Atlanta Braves won a world series a couple of years ago and they continue to be the Atlanta Braves.

The Indians jumped immediately and said, yep, we're with the Redskins, we're the guardians now. I have a friend who's a West Point graduate. I mean, he's a West Point graduate, he's a squared away human being, and he's from Cleveland. And he was heartbroken because he said, I grew up in Cleveland and I know the history. There were a bunch of Native American baseball players at the time that were playing. Jim Thorpe was one of them. And with the laws of the time,

the unwritten laws of baseball where there wasn't integration. Some players with mixed heritages got away with saying they were something other than black. And there were guys who were Indian or they would say, I'm an Indian player. And because of the area they were in and because of the number of players they had that were Native American, they went with the Cleveland Indians. So it was actually to honor. Now the chief Wahoo logo.

was clearly out of bounds for a lot of people. And to this day, think everybody's like, Whoa, that was, it was a caricature of a native American that was considered highly, highly insulting or offensive, that got taken away several years ago. anyway, Redskins say I'm out. We're going to go with the new name and the, the Cleveland Indians follow, but the Braves don't get out. And, the Braves don't get out the chief stone as well. So

Jack Moore (18:55.747)
This is what I immediately thought about. Many people don't know this. The team we think of the Washington franchise was founded in Boston, Massachusetts in 1932. Its owner was George Preston Marshall, who has a bad history with race that I'll get into. I'll talk about. So George Preston Marshall owns a team. has like a series of, he has laundry mats. He's a big laundry mat guy and he funds.

the team in 32 as the Boston Braves and they're playing in the Boston Braves stadium. And if you see the logo from 1932, it is the Indian portrait, not the Indian portrait, but the silhouette of the Indian in profile with the headdress going back in a circle.

Kind of like what you go here, but it's not, it's not the same image. So that is the Boston Ranskins logo. He's playing in the Boston brave stadium. So the team, you know, today is the Atlanta Braves came from Milwaukee, came from Boston. They were in Boston until 1950 ish. They moved to Milwaukee and in 1966, they moved to Atlanta. So that's the same franchise. Boston Braves, Milwaukee Braves, Atlanta Braves eventually. So.

They're playing in the brave stadium and they're carrying the same name. That happened a lot. There was an NFL team early on the New York Yankees. There were the Brooklyn Dodgers that played football. A lot of teams did that. you know, later you see the St. Louis Cardinals that came from Cleveland while the baseball team was there, but there were many cities that had the same name for the baseball team and the football team. He's not doing well. George Preston Marshall.

is not doing well in attendance. So he decides to move to Fenway park. So according to one's account that I have read, a friend's like, Hey, you know, you were the Boston Braves playing in the Boston Braves baseball stadium. Now you're in Fenway red socks, red skins. And he went, Hey, you're onto something. Let's not continue to be the Boston Braves in Fenway.

Jack Moore (21:17.024)
They wanted to make an attachment to the baseball team. I don't know. I can't think of too many other reasons why you would change. went from one name that would be associated with native Americans and you went to another and you made a change in location to a stadium where the Boston Red Sox played. I don't know that story for sure. Look it up. It might be true, but anyway, I've heard that.

So now he goes 33, 34, 35, and 36, and they're a successful team as the Boston Redskins, but they don't get attendance. They continue to not get attendance. It's so bad in 1936 that George Preston Marshall, who can host the NFL championship game, says, I don't like our fans anymore. The press has not been really covering them the way I want. We're going to go to New York to the Polo grounds. So they played the championship game in New York.

even though they were the home team and really upset the Boston fans. Like, Hey, wait a minute. We just made the championship game. You didn't even play it in Boston. He goes, yeah, because you never come to our games. So apparently his wife, who was a somewhat of a movie star, Hollywood type, Kareem Griffith. she, she wrote the fight song, hail to the Redskins. And she actually wrote that too, but she says, Hey, George Preston.

Why don't you move back to your home downtown of DC? was from Washington, DC. There we became the Washington Redskins. I think you can probably see where I'm going with this. When the attack came on Redskins, I thought, well, if Braves is still fair game, you can still be the Braves in Atlanta. Why not revert back to the original name? Keep the history, keep the Indian head on the side of the helmet. Keep all the Native American culture aspect, but call yourself Braves instead of Redskins. And I never heard a soul say it.

They're warriors and this, and I'm like, Hey, go back to Braves. It's in the history. Then the history would have been Braves to Redskins and a little bit of time where you're the Washington football team. And I was like, why don't you revert back? Never heard it. Never heard it mentioned. I'd have been perfectly fine with that. so I have my co-host and close friend, Laura here that's heard all these stories and heard me, talk about this. I personally.

Jack Moore (23:35.803)
I'm heartbroken that the name is gone, but I am. Yeah, I don't want to sound, you know, like the kind of cliche like, I'm open to other people's fields, but no, I don't want to being supportive of football franchise that I grew up with that is truly offensive to people. The question becomes though, you know, like really at what numbers I'll say this in 2016. Now I've heard people attack this and say.

It came from the Washington Post, but I've heard it attacked. I've heard, well, wait a minute, you got to see what questions were asked. But there was a poll that went out from the Washington Post in 2016. And the number that came back was 91 % of Native Americans, people who were members of tribes, not just, you know, my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather knew an Indian. I mean, it's like, you know, they're actually people of

Native American blood at substantial level where they're tribe members and things. They asked them and 91 % said they either like it or don't care. Only 9 % found a fence or et cetera, et cetera, whatever. And again, I've heard those numbers aren't good. I have personally witnessed a ton of films and it could have been payment under the table by the Washington Redskins, Snyder, but there are a lot of films of Native Americans being interviewed and they're like, they either love the name

Like, Hey, I love that imagery. Having a native American on the side of the helmet made me proud to be a Redskins fan or I got other fish to fry. isn't really such a big deal to me. Now there have been some I've clearly seen protesting outside the stadium, saying the name is offensive, et cetera. So Laura, I know you've done some looking into this too, as well. Where do we find the balance between

Something that has some historical significance to some fans, whatever, and where you draw the line at, it's an offensive word or name.

Laura Giles (25:35.828)
Well, I think that two issues need to be looked at to find that balance. One of them is the idea that anytime you have a mascot, that is your identity. You choose a mascot because these are the qualities that you want to identify with, and it's not easy to dislodge an identity. It's a difference between saying, have depression and I am depressed. If I have depression, I can set it down. If I am depressed, this is my identity. You're not going to shift it very easily.

Jack Moore (25:45.371)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Giles (26:05.152)
And what they have effectively done is taken away the identity of the Washington Redskins fans. And it replaced it with what? That's like saying, OK, you thought all this time that you were African and now you're Chinese. Or you thought all this time that you're female, but I'm here to tell you you're male. I mean, you just can't do that. You can't tell somebody this is not who you are. And that's what's happened. And that's why it's so gut wrenching for people.

Jack Moore (26:12.153)
Ouch.

Jack Moore (26:34.111)
And you're directing that at me. Like I'm the person who grew up little Jack in the stadium. I know, but I'm, but I'm, I'm using, no, but I'm using me as the example that while there may be native Americans who sincerely said, want that name removed. There's trauma to me as well, because I'm this little red skin fan that grows up in all the years. Now.

Laura Giles (26:39.426)
I'm talking about everybody. Everybody, you're represented by lots of people. Yeah. Yes.

Laura Giles (26:54.348)
Yes. Yes.

Jack Moore (26:59.108)
I do it doing a lot of reading going in this. First of all, if you look at the word Redskins against it's a hodge podge It's all over the place. It's questions of native Americans in the 17th century, referring to themselves as red people, signing treaty documents with the United States government is red people. I read one account that said it was sort of a we're here. these white people come in. Now they're bringing black slaves in.

And they started to say, they look black, they look white. That makes us, or it was kind of like to identify, you know, and then you have all kinds of mixture of the races, as you know, especially if you're where I'm from. The whole biracial marriage case, the loving case, that's the county I grew up in. And you know the story. The sheriff that arrested them at 2 a.m. in the morning is the man my father defeated as sheriff. Now my father was from a different part of the state, but he came there as a state trooper.

But what I know from where I grew up, that part of the world where the Lovings, we were loving Mary Jeter, I went to school with her kids. That was a part of the world where everybody kind of in that part of the world was Native American, black and white and every mixture thereof. And it's kind of the way it was in that part of the world. And I went to high school with the kids from that environment. And I'm not saying there was a perfection in that, but it's just the way

You didn't look at people and go like, they might be bi-racial. That's pretty much the way things were there. Now, if you grew up in a part of the world where it's 97.3 % white and, and about that, about race, let me just say something. James Lofton, who I thought was one the greatest football players ever saw, he said a very interesting thing. A very interesting thing. I hope everybody takes right what I'm saying. It's James Lofton saying it. He's this black gentleman that played in the NFL and got traded to the Packers.

And they asked him about the race issue being in Green Bay, Wisconsin. And this was in the eighties. And he said, you know, I had a really interesting thing happen to me because I'm walking down the street, this five year old white boy with his dad goes, dad, dad, who's that? And that the father said, son, that's a black man. And the kid had literally never seen a black man. And he goes, I could see there was no animosity in his heart. There was.

Jack Moore (29:22.241)
It was just, I've never seen anyone of God's children, you know, that shade of melanin. Okay. So he goes, father's like, son, that's a black man. Go say hi to him or something. And Loftin said, that's a part of the world where you just don't see a lot of black folks. Right. So we all have our different views of race and how we grew up. We just do. Right. So when I was growing up, I grew up as a white American.

that had watched a lot of cowboy and Indian movies. That was a big part of our culture. And the Indian was looked at, here he's going to come in, he's shooting bows and arrows. mean, that's, that's, know, that's just kind of the nature of the John Wayne movie. And then the Calvary would sometimes come riding in to save settlers or those that are migrating West. So as a kid, I thought naturally when we were playing, it was cowboys and Indians when we played the Dallas Cowboys.

And I thought, I'm pulling for the Indians. However bizarre that seems or whatever, but that's kind of the world I grew up in. was kind of a cartoonish view, I know, but it was based upon the imagery. Now, if you were to say now that 1920 to 1950 Hollywood was very disparaging to Native American culture. Yeah, I would agree with that. I would agree. And as a kid growing up in America, there was certain imagery that was done that was

Certainly done from a predominantly white culture basis, but nowhere in, I'm just saying nowhere in my six to 16, 20 timeframe, did I ever think I wanted the mascot to be a group of people who were being disparaged? I mean, I don't think anybody looked at their mascot and like, wow, I hope we have the most one offensive mascot possibly into that, which is disparaging to a group of people.

Laura Giles (31:18.866)
No, I think they chose it because it is strong and it's fierce. That's why we choose mascots like that. In high school, mine was a bulldog and they took the bulldogs out on the field right before every game. And that's to remind you, know, be fierce. You can do this. You got this. Same thing with the Washington Redskins. Nobody picks that because they want something disparaging.

Jack Moore (31:41.649)
Now, but to give some more history, George Preston Marshall is one of those at the forefront of the NFL. The NFL starts around 1920. It's called something else and eventually becomes that's why, and I have some footballs back here that have the 100th anniversary on it. In 2019, that was the 100th season of the league. And it's the last year the Redskins were the Redskins. And I actually found a collector that has footballs that have, well, I'm going to grab one. Here we go. Yeah, here we go.

So this is an actual Wilson to the team issued ball for the 100th anniversary. So in 1920, these group of guys get together in the showroom of a car dealership and they decide to put together this team. and by the way, just for some absolute beauty here, this is one of my favorite of the last of the helmets before they took away the decal and all. And I will say that I have to say this editorial comment.

That is the greatest helmet ever in NFL history. That is the greatest helmet color that symbol and we'll get into the symbol as well. But George Preston Marshall, and I think this is part of the legacy that hurts the team. He did not want to integrate. So after Jackie Robinson integrates base, let me back up and say this so you and everybody knows the whole history. Moses Fleetwood Walker played in the major leagues in 1888.

In the major leagues at the time, he played for the Toledo Mudhens. He was a black man from Ohio that played for the Toledo Mudhens. In the following years, ownership came up with what they called a gentleman's agreement to not allow black players to play in the major leagues anymore. So a lot of people believe that Major League Baseball as constituted in 1869, Ford said, no blacks allowed. That's not true. There were blacks playing before the 20th century.

Then the gentleman's agreement, a lot of people think it's a law. Well, they passed a law that black players couldn't play. They never passed a law. There was this quote unquote gentleman's agreement. So Branch Rickey, who I think knew a lot of things about what he was going to do. I mean, there are a lot of elderly black folks I noted this day a lot. And who do they love? Say it. The Dodgers. They're all Dodger fans. There are black folks all over the country.

Jack Moore (34:05.742)
that are Dodger fans because of Jackie Robinson and because the Dodgers integrated first. So because they integrate, they're like, okay, I can see myself being involved in that team. What do you think happened to ticket sales? They went through the roof. there was a business aspect to Branch Ricky as well and a competitive balance aspect. If you're going to play a group of people that nobody else will let play and they've got some physical ability, you're going to have an edge. And that's what happens.

Laura Giles (34:20.29)
They skyrocketed. Yeah.

Jack Moore (34:35.449)
Well, in the 40s, you start to see black players in the NFL. And Jim Brown said something I thought was quite interesting. He said, and it was true. He said, when I came into the league in 56, there was always an even number of black players on each team. And this guy goes, why is that? And he goes, because of rooming. You couldn't room a black guy and a white guy. And he goes, are you kidding? He goes, yeah. So if there were three great black players.

They kind of let a fourth guy slide and make the roster. But what you didn't want to be is like three and four and you could be good, because if four could make it, three's gone because it literally was that way. And I'm like, wow, that's that's it. It wasn't until the mid sixties that the Chicago Bears, it was depicted in Brian Song, the movie of of Gail Sears and Brian Piccolo. They're they're rooming together by position. There's a scene where they come in and George Hallis says,

Guys, you know what you're up against, right? And they're like, eh, whatever. We're both the same. We're like brothers. like, no, no, no. We're going to be in the South times we play. This isn't going to go over well with people. There's going to be a lot of people upset in the mid sixties. So back to George Preston Marshall, he will not integrate throughout the fifties. And if you look, the Redskins won the world championship in 37, their first year in Washington. They went again in 45. Then things start to change.

And when Lombardi had the first winning season in 69 and 14 years, what does that go back to? 1955. So the Redskins become atrocious in the late 50s and early 60s because they won't integrate. I mean, it's just a competitive balance thing. If you got a league letting black guys play and you don't, the other thing that really made the difference in black players and pro football was the AFL. Because then when the AFL starts,

They're very progressive in their views, like we need football players. So where do they go? They go to the historically black schools where you have all these guys today in the hall of fame, the Prairie view, the Grambling's, the Southern's, those schools, NFL really hadn't been doing a lot of research on, they got football players. So now the historically black schools are coming in. They're starting to dominate in the NFL and it shifts. Anyway, back to Marshall. Marshall keeps saying over my dead body, teams remaining white.

Jack Moore (37:00.18)
So that location of RFA, RFK stated, which had just opened Mo Udall, the, the, secretary of department of interior under JFK says, okay, how about this? How about we, take your rights to play as a violation of civil rights, civil rights legislation and not yet passed. But they're like, if you won't integrate the team, you can't play at RFK. It's congressionally owned basically. And he goes, okay, okay. So you may have seen the movie express. It's the story of Ernie Davis.

He was the guy that followed Jim Brown at Syracuse. He was the next can't miss big hit Heisman trophy winner. He gets drafted or he's aligned to be drafted by the Redskins who have the worst record in the league. So they're picking first. And he comes out and says, I will not play for the racist. I will not play for the racist George Preston Marshall. So he knows he's still got to integrate. So he trades the draft choice to the Cleveland Browns for Bobby Mitchell.

And when he trades to Bobby Mitchell or for Bobby Mitchell, Bobby Mitchell becomes the first black player to play for the Redskins in 1962. It's 1962 before. So it's another thing I know from where I grew up, from where I grew up, where I grew up 70 miles from DC. There were a lot of older black folks that were cowboy fans, tons. And you know, people used to say like, you know, they're of an age.

where they were 10, 15, 20 years old when the team didn't have a black player. And so there'd be a lot of like, why the Cowboys? Because they're in Dallas and they had black players and the Redskins didn't. And they were right in Washington's back door, but they didn't care for the Redskins because of how Marshall had been. I totally get that too. So you do see a lot of Cowboys fans throughout the country, because they are America's team. And you see a lot of ill will towards the Washington franchise because of its history.

So all this kind of stuff kind of kind of adds up into it again. All right. I do want to go into one other thing real quick, because this is somebody we really want to get on. So I watched a video with Billy Deakman, who is a U.S. Marine. And he is a Native American who is part of the this group, the Native American Guardians Association. Now, this is a year old.

Jack Moore (39:17.725)
And a lot of people probably heard the story. I signed the petition. I was in it 45,000. I know it went over a quarter of a this is from over a year ago. Native Americans leading Redskins petition outraged that a Washington commander's rep called them a fake group. The native Americans who are leading a viral petition demanding the Washington commanders reclaim their historic Redskins name bristled with anger and resolve after a team representative called their organization a fake group. We're not a fake group.

We're a tribal enrolled members from tribes across the United States. Eunice Davidson, co-founder and president of the nonprofit native American guardians association, headquartered in North Dakota, toll Fox news. So I've watched Billy here talk about it. And again, it's somebody I really, really want to, you know, kind of break bread with here on, on the air and talk to, because, he has an interesting take in a course. Honestly, it's a take I want to believe he says.

The Redskins means in Native American culture, it's the warrior who painted one's body in a pact with the Almighty to say, I'm going to war, I'm putting it all on the line. It was a warrior thing. And he said, warrior didn't mean just killing others. It meant defending the family, defending your turf, defending what out, know, warrior meant that which had strength to be in defense of others who couldn't defend themselves.

So he said some really positive things about it. And he said, do I not think that this word has turned derogatory? Yes, sure. Maybe it has. But he says, I don't think people know the whole story about the word. He further says that he's from Oklahoma and he was in the Marine Corps, served in, know, once Marine, always Marine, but served in the Marine Corps and that he became a fan of the Washington Redskins because of the logo. I looked at

the comments on YouTube from this posting of his interview. And one woman said, and I'll get into this history too. One woman said, I was watching a football game in my hometown of San Francisco and I saw this helmet on the field and said, daddy, that's my nose. Said that. And she said, am I free to love whatever team I want? And he goes, yeah, baby, you can love.

Jack Moore (41:43.258)
that I'm a Redskin fan.

Now, what does that mean? She's a Native American young female. And she said, I saw that and went, daddy, that looks like me. want to be, I want to, I don't know if it's true. It's in the comments. I mean, she said I was a little girl. And when I saw that Native American figure, I wanted to be a part of that team.

Does she have a lane for that? Is she supposed to be? I don't know. Again, I don't really know what to say about that. I thought it was kind of moving and touching. Now the background on that, that is Chief Chew Guns Whitecalf, who is basically the image that you see on the Buffalo Nickel. And he was a Blackfoot Indian. So, well there's a little history above that. All up here as I point.

That helmet you see right there is a 65 to 68 Washington Ranskin helmet with a spear on the side. These are all Sonny Jurgensen helmets. So he wore that 65 to 68 because of a mistake that Vince Lombardi's brother-in-law made on the team color of the Jersey. They had to strip all of these helmets of the decals and paint it cardinal to match the Jersey's. The Jersey's had been plumb. They were supposed to be plumb color and keep that helmet and they messed up the order.

Vince Lombardi literally gave the order for the uniforms to his brother-in-law who messed up the color. So they had to strip them all and paint them Cardinal. So you see my Cardinal when they're with this, with that. Then Vince Lombardi wanted the team to look like the Packers. So he had it in the works to go to the gold helmet, like the Green Bay G helmet and put an R on the side. Then he died. So in 1971, they wore this helmet in 1970.

Jack Moore (43:33.144)
They came back to wear the gold helmet with the R on it in 71 when George Allen came and then Blackie Wetzel, Walter Blackie Wetzel, who was big in the Native American community nationally, was a Blackfoot Indian. He approached the team and said, you want to do this right? Put the image of, two guns, white calf on it. Take that Buffalo nickel thing. Now he did not design it, but.

They took that image and basically came up with this. I have told a million people that again, I've got skin in the game. I love the team. I love the imagery. And there are a lot of people like, no, no, no. That was awful cartoon kind of character of a native American. think, no, it was given by native Americans. What are you sure about that? Like they're shocked to find out that that was actually sort of commissioned by native Americans to give to the team. So here a few years ago, when they dropped the name,

The family was very upset. say that, but I will say I've read from one grandson that said granddad loved the world that he grew up in. He died in 2002, I believe it was. And he thought it was a noble thing to give that, but times have changed. The name is offensive. Got to go. Now, one of his other, I think grandsons or may have been son said kind of opposite. I just read a couple of quotes and I'm messing up by not knowing which said what, but

There was a split even within his family, is the point I'm making. The one said, I greatly loved my grandfather, but his views on this imagery is a little out of touch. And then another was like, no, I think we took a gut punch as a family because that which we attached to is gone. All right. Thoughts, comments, Laura so far.

Laura Giles (45:24.596)
I think the history is amazing. Thank you for that history lesson. But I can see how it would be divisive because of trauma. I think that the people who don't like the name are trauma bound and are kind of forcing everybody else to be sensitive around their trauma, which is not a bad thing. I think we do need to be compassionate for people with trauma. And yet there's no way that you can tiptoe around a world that way because you don't know who's carrying what trauma.

Jack Moore (45:34.901)
Yeah.

Jack Moore (45:53.809)
You and I talked off air about this very thing and you know, you're always informative to me because of your training and just kind of you're super, super bright and you know, you're inquisitive and you look into things. So when you say that, I, like I said, the whole thing I said about how the native American was, was depicted historically in this country in just that sort of.

garden variety, if you went to the movie theater in any town USA in the forties, fifties, sixties, never was the native American character really much of a heroic figure unless he's given into the white man and serving some purpose for the white man. I mean, it's just pretty much what it was. So I have to admit that growing up in a predominantly white culture and in all the media and the movies and television, as things were starting to shift over time.

I have to admit that Native Americans weren't, depicted in ways that were flattering. It just weren't right. So, so that being a given, we get into the question, cause I, one of the major lines that you heard from people that were offended. mean, one of the major ones was I'm not your mascot. So it made me think, okay, let's, this is why we call it more to consider. Let's consider this. So I'm thinking, okay.

Laura Giles (46:55.508)
Absolutely, yeah.

Jack Moore (47:18.116)
Not too many things that are clearly white or, you know, Caucasian or whatever the heck that is. Cause I think we're all to some degree. I don't think there's too many people that purebred anything. think everybody's like mixtures of different things. And there's certainly predominantly more of this or that. But when it comes to ethnicity, culture, and all the rest, we, are, you know, especially as the world's become more globalized, it's not as if you don't know a lot of things about people.

from all kinds of different areas. But if I look at like the Minnesota Vikings, okay, what are Vikings?

Laura Giles (47:57.442)
Vikings or Scandinavian warriors?

Jack Moore (48:00.551)
There you go. Now it's kind of the four ish image story. Maybe like a white guy with some blonde hair long, maybe carrying some kind of implement in his hand. He might have a chess player, right? Do you think is any, and I'm not, listen, I'm not, I'm not trying to say that native Americans given the history, but I mean, does anybody ever go, Hey, I'm from Scandinavia. Nobody asks me if you can make, you know, be a Viking. mean, okay, whatever now.

The Dallas Cowboys. What do you think is a cowboy?

Laura Giles (48:33.9)
Historically cowboys have been kind of dirty grungy hard-working outcasts

Jack Moore (48:39.835)
or any black cowboys?

Laura Giles (48:42.21)
Few, very few. Yeah.

Jack Moore (48:43.385)
Absolutely, there were black cowboys. No, but there were people in the West that did the same kind of work. Do you okay? But do we generally now that that beautiful guy for all those years, he used to take the redskins. That was beautiful. Well, Chief Z I actually met he was a black gentleman that wore the redskin outfit and just passed away. He was a legendary loved by everyone figure in Washington because he would wear all the black gentlemen.

Laura Giles (48:48.268)
Yeah, yeah.

Jack Moore (49:09.999)
from DC would wear all the Indian imagery and stuff and cheer for the Redskins. And he would often get into it with the black gentlemen that wore the cowboy outfit. They'd sit there like play fight. They had stuffed animals. They'd fight with each other. And the black gentleman would take the Redskin pendant, throw on the ground and stomp on it and all that kind of stuff. So that was a lot of the fun history of the Redskin cowboy robbery. Two black guys acting like they were fighting in cowboy outfit in Native American gear. But

I don't generally see any depiction of the player. And there's only a few that have been like the cartoonish figure of a Dallas cowboy. It's always a white guy on a horse, maybe, or it's, on a pony running real fast. I don't think there's been anything that would make one think that there's any type of recognition of black cowboys. does that, does a cowboy become, do cowboys historically in the movies injure Indians, injure Native Americans?

Laura Giles (50:06.444)
Yes. Yes.

Jack Moore (50:08.708)
Well, hey, is that maybe you should be going after them and not the risk. I don't know. But you know, you could get into that. I've heard a lot of people say, what about the fighting Irish? Are the Irish totally on board with that? Should you be offended if you're it? it? Would it not? If you're Irish, would that not carry with it some connotation of you're a violent people? You're fighting Irish. They got the little Irish guy, leprechauns and stuff. You have the Boston Celtics, but they're

But generally mascots are animals, right? lot of birds, a lot of cats. Yeah. Okay. Right. So when it gets into humans as a, you know, type of mascot, but, but on that thing, do I ever look at, I don't know. I was saying this to a friend the other day. This is way out of line, but I'll say it like, what if

Laura Giles (50:42.818)
Yeah. Yep. Hawks. Yeah. Tigers.

Jack Moore (51:08.618)
A minor league baseball team in Tupelo Mississippi called themselves the poor white trash crackers, something, you know, would I take offense to that? Should I take offense to that?

I'm just asking.

Laura Giles (51:24.666)
I think if you do, it says more about you and your own self-image.

Jack Moore (51:29.91)
Well, that's what I'm saying. And again, it sounds like, I know it's a dangerous ground to kind of say, cause I'm not trying to disparage, but I think there's a certain amount of you choose to. So I do think the one-to-one clean fix on this that we would say is if Redskins is as some say the N word to Native Americans, then you know, if it's that, if that really is, and you know, and I've heard a real good compact people say, Hey, when's the last time you called a Native American a Redskin?

If you won't call them that on the street, doesn't that kind of tell you that? Yeah.

Laura Giles (52:04.429)
Well here's the difference though, we don't live in an area like if you go to South Dakota, if you go to Arizona, California, the Native American population is much higher. They may have that issue there. We don't. So that's not a part of our day-to-day reality.

Jack Moore (52:09.666)
Hmm?

Jack Moore (52:21.972)
Well, yeah. And something else though, and we had discussed this off the air too, that I read that I, I'd never heard this as we have kind of come into, right, let's just, how much the world's changed. I remember the red Fox time on TV when he was in Sanford and Son, where he literally was in a courtroom and saying there was a racial injustice in the courtroom.

And he says, there's enough of these people here to make a Tarzan movie. Do you remember that reference? Well, he said it red Fox in the courtroom. The judge said something. goes, Hey, there's enough. You know, the word in this courtroom to make a Tarzan movie. was red Fox black comedian who was way out there with a lot of, you know, everybody loved red Fox at the time, but that was said on national TV in the seventies. And then you started to see where the word became.

N word became the F word almost. was like, you can't say it. So then you started to see, we all know this eighties and nineties with music, young black artists saying it all the time. And you know, whether it was A or E, E R and you know, the whole thing about how it was said and who it was said by. The reason I bring up that subject is one of the defenses I heard of the Redskins and the logo after the name was stripped.

And I saw a gentleman from somewhere out in the Northwest in a predominantly Native American culture area who was in superintendent schools. Their team was the Redskins and their helmet was that helmet. And they said to him, are you going to dump it? And he said, over my dead body, we're going to be the Redskins. So I thought that was more of a, I'm down with the logo. I'm, know, well, now I come to find out there's a whole thing out there.

We're very much like black culture with the N word. They're saying, no, no, no, we can call ourselves redskins. That's not a word for you to even say. And that's the first time I'd really heard that angle. Because the way it was presented when I heard the guy say you won't take that logo, it was I'm in support of the name and the logo. But I've read articles that say, no, what they're saying is we are of this culture. It is our word. It is our logo.

Jack Moore (54:46.101)
you're not to say it or, you can't run it on your high school helmet. I don't know if it's come, if it's come to that. And I don't think any of that could possibly be good. And the last thing that I think has to be said is, and I would hear people say this over and over in defense of keeping the name Washington Redskins. And I'm like, people aren't going to eat. They're just not going to buy that. You're just not going to buy that. was another.

dictionary term should be added. It was redskins, historically, boom, boom, boom, now considered slur or derogatory. Then boom, two, three, or wherever it would be a football team in Washington, DC. Like that is another definition. And I'm like, I hear you, but people have made the argument that a Washington redskin in this helmet is a thing.

And it doesn't direct that logo and all of this towards a group of people. Another thing I'll say about when I keep seeing another thing, but another thing that I think has to be said. I remember a friend of mine said when all this was starting to go down, he goes, well, you know where Snyder made his mistake. Snyder threw a lot of money at native American causes in general, slush fund, throw it here, throw it there, knock yourself out. We're trying to buy you out.

Basically, I mean, let's face it. was yeah, all of a sudden I really care about Native Americans and how well off they are because I want to keep this name and The friend of mine said what he should have done was buy out a tribe buy off a tribe And he goes you ever notice that Florida State is the Seminoles with the spear on their side of the helmet very similar that and I go Yeah, he goes, know why that is because they're in on it and they are it's like the Seminole nation says this is our school Florida State we're running with them

And then if somebody goes, I think I'm offended. How about screw you? We're the Florida state Seminoles and this is our team. And that's what they've said. So I'm like, so we could have gone like, you know, all right, you got commanders. What about the Comanche Indians? What if you go in here right now? You're the Washington Comanches with your Washington Apaches. And that's what the guy said. He's like, yeah, if you get a tribe, particularly on board, it's kind of, it kind of makes you bulletproof because if the tribes on board and their tribal leaders have said, yup, we'll let you run that symbol.

Jack Moore (57:13.284)
Blackfoot Indians, that's where that came from. So I don't know, do you go to the Blackfoot Indians in South Dakota and say, are you down? You want to be a part of this? But I tell you the truth too, I told a friend of mine, I said, if I knew tomorrow that if I went to a game and I got courted a couple of years ago about coming to get Washington commanders tickets, I told the guys, said, change the name back and I'll come back. I literally said that. They're like, well, know, commanders is pulled in really well. said, no, it's not. No, everybody hates that name. And these two young, I think where are from? The kid goes, New Jersey.

other guy in Minnesota, Vikings giants, right? And you go like, yeah, I was like, you don't know that you don't know anything about this place. You don't know anything about that name and what it means to people. And they're like, oh no, it's, it's very, very popular. Nah, no, it's not. But, um, if I thought that I was paying an extra 50 % for a ticket because it was going to native American children, their education, their health, I'd, I'd, Hey, tell me where to write the check. I'd be fine with that.

If I thought that this is what the Naga people were saying, the Native American Guardian Association, they're like, we want to teach our culture. We want to get it back out there where people can see it. Like all you've done is shut down our culture. You took that symbol off the helmet, you call it commanders, and now Native Americans are out of sight, out of mind. And I'm not so sure there's that truth to that, right? But we're being, you know, we got to be sensitive to all these different things. All right. What do you think? Where are we at now?

Laura Giles (58:41.43)
I think that when somebody honors you with something that's going to give you such a high profile and a space of dignity and pride and you throw that away, then you've wasted something. I think the name should stay Redskins. I'm not a fan. don't do I haven't seen a seen a Super Bowl since probably Super Bowl 20. So I'm not a fan. I don't have any skin in the game. But I think that they have have thrown away a huge opportunity to be in the limelight and to honor the culture.

Jack Moore (58:58.922)
wow.

Jack Moore (59:12.47)
Well, of course I selfishly think the same thing, that's now, what do you think about arguments on? And I hate this, but it's what we've turned the world into. It almost becomes a, are you enough of that to speak?

Laura Giles (59:27.33)
I get that every day of my life. Every day of my life.

Jack Moore (59:32.916)
Really?

Laura Giles (59:33.588)
every single day. I'm multicultural, you can probably tell by looking at me, and I don't belong anywhere according to everybody else. So yes, I get that every day of my life. Yes. Like I don't get a say because I'm not whatever enough.

Jack Moore (59:41.878)
So you feel that.

Well that's heartbreaking to me because...

Yeah, that's heartbreaking to me because I know your soul and that, you know, I mean, we've known each other for a quarter of a century. I, and I will tell you too, though, it, I'm not in a, I'm not in position, I guess, to cry, the cry of my whiteness or whatever you call it. But it has been a space of about two decades where you feel like, well, I can't speak to that because I'm going to be called a racist. can't, you know, I mean, you know, the culture we've been living in. And so.

Laura Giles (01:00:16.855)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jack Moore (01:00:19.79)
I remember, I'm going to tell you, well, you know this story, so I'm going to tell it to the audience. My mother just passed away a few years ago, and I don't know why she was the way she was or my dad was the way he was. They were born in 1928, 1931. My mother born in 1931. I think a lot of had to do with the way she was was my grandfather was a federal agent. She got put in a lot of different places and she told me this story as a child and she told it up until her death.

She told me stories about things and she's a little girl growing up in Charleston, South Carolina. She was in Mobile, Alabama. She was in Ohio. She was in Washington, DC. She was in Pennsylvania, all over the place. So she's in the segregated South, Jim Crow land. And at the same time, she was in more progressive areas. So, and you know, if you're a military brat or you grow up that existence, you learn her first.

Her first playmate was a black girl when she was four. She told me this story. It was a black female. And it was because my grandmother had a hired domestic that came in to help her with chores. And one day she said, my grandfather's standing there and says, or standing there. And the lady said, my daughter's got to work and she's got a little girl. Can she come over while I'm helping your wife? He goes, absolutely. She can spend the night, whatever, know, hey, she can come. This is in South Carolina. He's like, she's welcome here anytime.

So my mom's in the front yard playing with this little girl and they become best friends. So fast forward to 1951, she's an X-ray technician school. She's an RPI, which is now VCU. She's at the hospital that's VCU now, Virginia Commonwealth University, which was then the Medical College of Virginia. And she said that they admit the first black female into her program.

And she loves this girl. There's an energy between them.

Jack Moore (01:02:17.074)
It's 1951 and it becomes dinner time and she takes her to the cafeteria all proud because she's now part of the team with the girls that are training together. And she takes her all proud down and the girls says, have to deny her admittance into the cafeteria. She's black. My mom pitches a fit. She said she was so angry.

She runs across the street and buys her dinner.

and they go to the 11th floor together to have dinner together.

Now one other girl raised a hand.

Jack Moore (01:02:52.721)
So I had really special parents.

Jack Moore (01:02:58.661)
And she told me what really bothered her about it.

Jack Moore (01:03:04.261)
was not just the race thing. And it's not just the language of inclusion at all. She was part of the team. That young lady was part of her team. And she couldn't even eat in the college cafeteria or that which was attached to it. So that really bothered her. It didn't bother, and I'm not disparaging the rest of them, but I don't know anyone else that would have done that in 1951.

It just kind of wasn't done. I had very special parents when it came to a lot of that. So the reason I set that up is my mom had a thing that she started when she was a little girl. little mud, the little, remember the Miss Butterworth bottles? She used to paint them. She had a collection of them. She painted them as a little girl. So she painted the Miss Butterworth.

Laura Giles (01:03:52.802)
Mm-hmm.

Jack Moore (01:04:01.594)
came out about the same time I joined Mrs. Butterworth, cream of wheat, joined Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben's and changing their brand among racial protest. So here's an article that came out, why the relatives of the real Aunt Jemima aren't happy. And I remember that image of a sweet black lady on the side of an Aunt Jemima box that was there for breakfast for many of us growing up. And somebody's like, wow, it's got racial overtone.

Why? Why? Even if she has a particular headdress on, which they changed out. But now the family is upset because they had an identity with it. They can walk down the street and hey, you Aunt Jemima? Yeah, we all love Aunt Jemima. It's part of my family. You know? So it is a lady originally that was a slave that becomes an entrepreneur and makes a really good batter for pancakes and syrups or whatever. And then a group of people. So that's offensive. And Uncle Ben?

Why was uncle Ben offensive? And the land of lakes girl, the pretty Indian princess on the side of a butter box. it was like, that's it. It's, and this is what part of what I think the national guardian association people are national, native American people are saying, man, everything that's an Indian symbol or a symbol of our culture is offensive. What the hell does that say? You pull it off of everything. Well, that's outdated. That's offensive. Really?

Laura Giles (01:05:24.046)
Right. Yeah.

Jack Moore (01:05:30.402)
I don't know. So when you say what you said, again, it doesn't hurt. hurts me to think anybody feels that way, but I got to tell you as a white guy, I felt that way a lot that I'm in a space where I can't speak because it's going to be cliche. Well, of course you're going to say that with your white privilege and you're a white guy or whatever. So, know, you know what I'm saying.

It kind of becomes that. And that's why in this whole setup of our more to consider, you know, we want to kind of consider what does everybody else feel. So in all of this, in summation, I'm like, what happens if 95 % of native Americans love that helmet and want that imagery and five don't. Then what do you do? If one person raises their hand, is Notre Dame really going to drop fighting Irish? If one Irish person comes out and says, you know, I've been really holding my tongue on this, but I'm about sick of this.

And so what are all the answers, Laura? Tell us all the answers. What do you think?

Laura Giles (01:06:31.232)
I think it's about trauma and I think people need to heal their trauma. There's not many Native American anything anywhere. If you can be on Land O'Lakes, be glad that you're on Land O'Lakes. Same thing I think with the Uncle Ben. There's not many products that you have a dark skinned spokesperson and why would you want to do away with that? It's not like he's standing there committing murder. He's selling rice.

Jack Moore (01:06:57.131)
Well, in the Aunt Jemima story too, that one again, let me just get on into that. Surprisingly not everyone has been celebrating Aunt Jemima's impending retirement. Harrington's great-grandson, Lenar Evans says Quaker not only took her likeness, but it also used a recipe to make the mix. She worked for that Quaker Oats company for 20 years. She traveled all the way around the world in Canada.

That was her job. How do you think I feel as a black man sitting here telling you about my family history? They're trying to erase over in East Texas, the relatives of another woman who played Aunt Jemima named Lily and Richard aren't too happy about the decision to retire the breakfast icon either. Richard was a goodwill ambassador for Quaker Oats and traveled around the state as Aunt Jemima.

Laura Giles (01:07:33.943)
Absolutely.

Jack Moore (01:07:51.019)
All right. Let me, let me tell you another story that I think is important because I lived it. Being a Washington Redskins fan. How crazy is this for recall? September 5th, 1983. Everyone can look this up. September 5th, 1983 is Monday night football opening is Washington as the world champions having defeated back in January of that year. They defeated the dolphins in the strike short and season. And they were now, uh, defending their championship.

It's Darryl Green's first game. And in that game, Alvin Garrett, a wide receiver who went on to have some real issues, but God bless him. He was on that Superbowl team. Alvin Garrett was a tiny guy, black guy that played wide receiver and in the game, and I'll never forget this guy. I remember what happened and I really didn't think anything of it because it was Howard Cosell. So if one is familiar with Howard Cosell, Howard Cosell

is a Jewish man from New York city who went to law school, et cetera, et cetera, and suffered a lot of discrimination because he was Jewish. Couldn't get into this firm. Real stuff. He's a man of an era born in the 1920s ish, World War II veteran. He saw discrimination because he was Jewish. Who do you think was one of the only people in the media that really stood up for Jackie Robinson?

Howard Cassell when Muhammad Ali said, I will not go across the water and kill people of another race because they're telling me this, that, or the other and lost his ability to fight and lost his champion. Whatever you think of Ali, he took a stand. He took a penalty. You know, it's not, you know, he kneeled for the flag. No, he took a penalty. He lost his livelihood. He lost everything.

Who was one of the only people in the media didn't call him draft Dodger, Howard Cosell. You get in the picture. Howard Cosell was kind of in front of some things and was a man who had suffered real discrimination because of his ethnicity, race or religion. Okay. So that game that night, balls thrown over the middle, Alvin Garrett makes the catch. And as he makes the catch and squirts out of some cowboy grasp and tries to get some extra yards.

Jack Moore (01:10:14.428)
He goes, look at that little monkey right.

He's fired from the night football, not, not long after it. So I saw a documentary on him about that and the family, all of his grandchildren are like, there wasn't a time he didn't call us monkey. That's all he ever did. You're a little monkey, you little monkey. Then they pull up Mike Adam Lee, who goes on to play in the NFL. He's in college. He goes on to play in the NFL.

and he becomes a correspondent for NBC or he becomes the sports guy on NBC. They show a film, they dig up a film and he goes, and Adam Lee catches the pass and he turns up, look at that little monkey go, white guy.

So my point in this is if you see a black guy catch a football and run up the field and someone calls him a little monkey and you see racism, what the hell does that say about you? Right? And I told people that story like that's tragic. The Coast cell went down. Coast cell Jackie Robinson, Muhammad Ali, the causes he fought for and against.

Laura Giles (01:11:09.902)
That's what I'm saying, Yeah.

Jack Moore (01:11:25.306)
And you're going to call him a racist because he called a black athlete a monkey when he called everybody a monkey. That's sick. That was 1983. That's 40 years ago that we had the same disease. But again, who has to see that and think he meant racial people that would see blacks as monkeys. If you don't see it that way, how do you see that as offensive? So then you have to dig a little deeper to realize that shows how unracist COCEL was.

Laura Giles (01:11:54.456)
Yeah.

Jack Moore (01:11:55.172)
If he called every little kid a monkey or every little small athlete a monkey and he did it then, if it's in his head, he's going, well, don't call Alvin Garrett that, they'll call me a racist. No, he said it because that's what he thought in the moment, which shows how little he was a racist. That whole thing just, I thought was so sad because I don't have any people ever saw the record set straight on that. But the grandchildren in documentary after his death, many years after his death were like, he was shattered by that. He was heartbroken by it.

for me to get painted a racist, for me to lose media exposure because of racism, of all people, it broke his heart. That's what's wrong with the whole culture thing. But again, I think it says, the people that say, well, Aunt Jemima's gotta come off the box. Why? Because she looks like Mammy from Gone With the Wind or something, the hair, and that's a bad imagery thing. Well, how about Hattie McDaniel? How many people know that Hattie McDaniel was the first black woman to win the Academy Award?

Laura Giles (01:12:24.61)
Yeah.

Laura Giles (01:12:50.968)
Yeah.

Jack Moore (01:12:50.999)
for best supporting actress. And you know what? She had to wait over in the kitchen. This is Hollywood, 1939. She's got to wait in the kitchen off from the main setting of the dinner to come up and get her award and then has to get escorted back out because she can't sit with the rest of the people. That's your Hollywood in 1940. She wins the Academy Award and she can't even be out there to get it. Now, I've seen her in other movies. Of course,

I love Gone with the Wind. think it's one of the greatest movies I've ever made. It's a great movie. I don't care what anybody says. She carries the movie. She just does. She is that, you know, between the dynamics of Scarlett and Rhett and everything, the world crashing in and around. The figure that keeps it all together is Hattie McDaniel's as Mammy. That's what it is. So I remember as a child, I'm like, I love Mammy. I think she's awesome. I didn't go, she's a racial stereotype that that's the only role she ever had in Hollywood.

If you go back and look at her movies, that's pretty much the only role she could get from 1935 to 1950 or whatever it was. But God bless her soul. She was a great actress or she certainly made that movie for me. And does it depict a time that now no one wants to recognize? Sure. Maybe to some, but still a great movie. I don't get what anybody says. It's a well-made movie. At its time, it's the greatest movie ever made. It's in the running still as one of the greatest movies ever made.

And it's about a whole lot more than slavery and the Civil War and all that. It's a whole bigger story going on there if anybody pays attention. So Laura, all this being said, what do you think is the strongest argument against the name ever coming back? Do you think there is a stronger argument for that?

Laura Giles (01:14:38.382)
So I do, to be fair, I think you could depict Native Americans in other ways than to say redskin. You could say Braves or Indians or lots of other things other than redskin.

Jack Moore (01:14:54.315)
So see, that's why I think I had the perfect compromise and I don't know that anybody's ever going to hear me say this. Hopefully you all you people out there is what is it you say? Subscribe and get this out. Say you like to get it out to other people. But yeah, I. Again, if I and I want Billy on and I want some other people that, you know, support this cause, I certainly I think we ought to try to get somebody on that doesn't. But if I thought. When I saw Billy Diekmann, this Marine.

this man from Oklahoma, that saying the thing, his heartfelt soul saying what he's saying, I'm kind of with him. Now you and I both know I'm about that much Native American and I think we're related, right? Actually, okay, I said that on the air. But yeah, so again, that's what I was kind of thinking, like what percentage does one have to be? If you go back to Jamestown like I do,

through my mother's side, you're going to have Native Americans in your background. mean, it's going to be, you know, that that's just the way the world was then clearly. So everybody in Virginia that goes back far enough, there is a lot of mixture of the races. And I think it's a beautiful thing because it makes us all God's children with a little bit closer relationship. But that being said, I don't know at what point I have a voice. But if I thought that Native American culture could be positively

funded, supported, and projected into the universe through this team. I'm all for it. I'm all for it. And I hail to the Redskins, sung in the stadium, which is still sung. In the comments the other day about Josh Harris, not going back to the name people were putting, I know what boycott. And then some people were like, well, saying hail to the Redskins, wear Redskin. 90 % of the people in the stands are wearing Redskin jerseys. They're not wearing commander's jerseys, but I will say this.

that I think is lost. was afraid of this. They started talking halfway through the season about doing throwback games and like every team that does a throwback theme, they wear old uniforms. What's there for this team to wear? But stuff like this, there has been talk where the arts less offensive, even where the spear hair, well, it can, doesn't say sudden a native American symbol. But again, not only is that completely bad ass, I think that is a great depiction.

Jack Moore (01:17:22.497)
of an actual living person, a person that once lived. But there started to be this rumble through the season. Even Dan Quinn, the head coach, who's done a lovely job, he wore a commander's shirt one day to practice it, had feathers hanging off of it. And somebody was like, he's sending a little symbol there. And he kind of, he kind of winked like, yeah, maybe something, something to that effect. Then there was talk that they were going to do some throwback stuff. And in the back of my mind, I said, you know what?

The way this season's going, if they win, now they're going to have the out. They're going to have the out and all the conspiracies that are out now that the chiefs are supposed to win. So Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey can have their moment where he drops to his knee at the end of the Superbowl. I there's all kinds of conspiracies that the chiefs have. Well, there's conspiracies because there's been some plays involving the chiefs winning that are kind of hard to look at and not say, I don't know what's going on this league.

Well, there's a rumor out now that the commanders defeated the Buccaneers and mysteriously defeated the number one ranked lions because they're trying to flush the name. So the argument is if they went deep in the playoffs, they're able to push the fans into, we're winning as the commanders put that Ransky and stuff away. If they had lost again and had another slide season.

The fans would have continued to say, we can only go back to the name. Everything would be good again. And now I'm afraid. I will say, I was in Washington, DC in January, first of the first of the year, I was up there for the, for the national baseball. And that's going to be another one. Of course, if I love that we're going to talk about a lot as baseball, but I was up there and I was with a friend and we run into this couple and he's got the brand new commander's jacket on. pretty, pretty sweet. And again, this is my.

Redskin stuff that has yay salute to the troops. This was an actual 2017 2018 Hoodie, you know with little camouflage to it Anyways guys got a really top grade type of commander's jacket. So I'm like, know, so that's a brother and he was like, hey, man What's going on? like commanders right there. Okay, our Redskins or whatever. Oh, I have my Redskin beanie on at the time and I don't know he's 40 ish probably

Jack Moore (01:19:41.338)
and him and his wife and I'm like, so we're to get it done. goes, I think we'll win the first round of playoffs, but not the second, we're building. said, man, it'd be great to get the team back in the city, get it, get it back to that sacred site of RFK stadium. He goes, I don't care. Put it out in the suburbs of Virginia. I went, it's the Washington Redskins. They need to be in the city. And if anybody knows Maryland, the DMV Maryland and Virginia, you know, the district of Columbia is

different. It's Washington. It's a different place. And you know, you're on the outskirts of it on both sides of the water, but you know, when you're in the city where you're in the rest of the history on that it's 10 by 10. And then the Virginia in 1859 got its part back. where you see Arlington there at the bottom where the cemetery is the Pentagon, that was originally the district of Columbia. It was given back to Virginia. Did you know that? Okay. So it was a 10 by 10 diamond, right? So the top part of the diamond now above the

Laura Giles (01:20:31.927)
No.

Jack Moore (01:20:36.761)
is Washington DC. Yay. That's another history lesson. And Virginia got its part back. I carried some college kids up here a few years ago. We were all like the cemetery. And you're like, what part of DC is this? I'm like, well, it is part of the original district, but you're in Virginia. No, we're not. I said, yeah, actually they didn't believe the Pentagon was in Virginia either. anyway, so when I was talking to these people and the guy said, I don't care where the stadium is. like, he doesn't care. He doesn't care. It's back in Washington.

And then I said something about the name, he goes, Hey, we're the commanders in rural Renin. As for old folks that I was like, my gosh, it's only taken like five years, but that's what's going to happen. You know, as me and my type get further, because I'm of the age. I remember the Joe Gibbs years and folks, me tell you something. The young folks out there, every year we went on the field. We were going to make the playoffs.

We were going to probably run deep. If you never lived in that environment, it was awesome. Joe Gibbs brought it every year. You went to RFK, tore the place down, the place would shake. There was a vibe and then all that died. Well, you got to be around 34 years ago to recognize what that was like. There was a part of that that came back and it died with Sean Taylor's death. It did. So let me do a little scoochy.

So that 21 over there, Sean Taylor, when he died, and this is my Sean Taylor helmet. Yeah, this is what he wore. A friend of mine put this together, it's all the padding. That was one of my favorite players of all time. There was a lot that died with him. We were on a run, Joe Gibbs had made a return. There was a lot of that feel again, that beauty of Joe Gibbs is wonderful.

And you know, he's 84 years old now. He's still there. But yeah, there was, there was an aura. There was a time and all of that died with Sean Taylor. I really do think it died. then just been a met. Well, it resurrected a little bit with RG three and then he gets injured and all the other stuff about that. So it's been a rollercoaster ride. But my point is I could tell this 40 something couple 35 to 40, they didn't They flat did not care your name, whatever. They don't care.

Jack Moore (01:23:02.495)
So I think with time, they're going to buy time, but they're going to be able to get away with it over time where no one's going to care. As a matter of fact, they're just going to buy into commanders. I do not like the name commanders. I love commanders in the military. I mean, I get that, but I don't love the name. And I want to return to the Indian thing, or the Native American. So Laura, we've talked about, I've talked about a lot here. So

racial sensitivity, cultural sensitivity. It's all there, but I think that people have to recognize, least I don't know people. They take that back. People don't have to recognize anything, but I want people to recognize that whitey like me can love an imagery about a culture I don't know a lot about other than I grew up in a part of the world where I learned something and I want to learn more. And if

Bringing this back gives an open avenue. But I tell you what, I don't want Aunt Jemima gone. I don't want Ms. Butterworth gone. I don't want Uncle Ben gone. I didn't want the Land O'Lakes princess gone. I didn't want any of that gone. That was a part of the world I grew up in. I want it back. I want the world I grew up in back. Doesn't make me a racist. Doesn't make me a bad guy. Because I think you want the same things.

Laura Giles (01:24:20.77)
Yeah. I want to see different faces representing products. I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't think it's racist thing. I think it's a good thing.

Jack Moore (01:24:30.567)
Well, you know, what's interesting about what you said right there, because this is what we're, think a lot of what we're talking about all the time about race, you know, the whole battle with diversity, equity, inclusion and all. I don't love you as a friend because of what color you are or what your racial ethnicity is or background or whatever else. Right. But it makes up who you are and it brings up a uniqueness in, I know a lot of things about you and I recognize where your heart is because.

of some of the things you talked about. There's a sensitivity that people have in the station they have. And when I said the thing about my mom going to bat for the girl that couldn't go to the cafeteria, think a lot of that has to do with she'd already seen in her life, a lot. I mean, and the fact that she had lived, she had a wonderful relationship with her mother and her father. And my grandfather was actually a World War I veteran, it or not, and served in the FBI, served in the state police.

Laura Giles (01:25:15.874)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jack Moore (01:25:29.362)
Did a lot of things. She was the daughter of a law enforcement officer in the first sense. So she grew up in that environment and she loved her father. He was a good man, but he was a man of 1895. but it was interesting. There's another racial dynamic I got it. And you can find this on YouTube. I'm going all over the map here, but I think this is worth seeing too. I was watching a documentary guy. He's on YouTube.

I'd like to give him credit, but I don't know exactly where I saw this, but it was a guy that did a lot of filming. And there was an interesting thing, because I have a black friend of mine that we grew up. I just went, here's a neat, let me just say this. Here's a neat thing. I just went to his mom's, I went to his mom's funeral. She'd lived quite a number of years recently. And we both told some people that I met this friend of mine, a black man, nine or 10 years older than me doing radio in Norfolk, Virginia.

And fell in love. just loved the guy. Politically, we agree on a lot. Look up Thomas Sowell, you'll understand the rest, but we agree on a lot. so one day my dad calls and my dad says, Hey, who is this gentleman? I said, that's my boy. I said, I love him. What's going on? He was like, I just met him at his father's funeral. And I'm like, you were at his dad's funeral? Because Jack, were best friends in the army reserve. And I'm like, what?

I never knew you knew his dad. goes, yeah, we were officers together. So my dad retired as a full colonel. I think his dad was a full colonel. He might have been lieutenant colonel, but I he was a full colonel. Anyway, my dad's called me and said, what do you know about this guy? I I love this guy, he's my brother. And he's walking in the receiving line, he's the only white man there. My dad said, he told me, like, I'm the only white guy there and I'm going up there. And his mother, who I go to the funeral in the fall or at August,

She goes, very pleased to meet you, sir. And he goes, well, I'm Sheriff Moore from Caroline. And my friend goes, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Did you say Sheriff Moore? He goes, yeah. He goes, your son and I are best friends. And shook his hand, was all excited. So I called him later. And I said, you met my daddy. He I love your dad. did you know our fathers were best friends? And I go, no, I never even knew that. And he had never had reason to really tell me. So here we are off in the world.

Jack Moore (01:27:55.522)
Becoming friends and we don't even know that our father served in the military together and her friends black and white, know, we didn't really know it but I've had a lot of interesting conversations because of the I think it's nine-year separation in our ages and I preface that with this because we've had this talk I'm watching this documentary guy and he's interviewing a guy who's a Vietnam veteran who grew up in Washington DC in DC So given the fact he's a Vietnam veteran. He's born around

1950 ish probably and he is a teenager is off to the Vietnam War in the late 60s. So he asked the guy he goes, what was your neighborhood like? Is every other house black and white? He probably no, we all love each other. No big deal. So he goes early 60s. I'm at somebody's house there at my house. That's what we did. So

He goes, a lot of times when I was at a black friend's house, it's three black kids and three white kids. We were just kind of like, that's what we did. We didn't think anything of it. Going up in DC. So he said, uh, at night or in the evening, a mom would come out and said, baby, where are you going to have dinner? And I'd go, I guess, no, no, I'm gonna call your mama. I'm calling your mama right now. You're having dinner here. Spend the night. Never thought anything of it. He goes, we all go off to Vietnam. We're all hoping each other's going to survive and we all come back.

And a bunch of us are sitting around now we're 20 and we're sitting around talking like, what the hell is this about school integration? The guy literally said this and he goes, you were shy. goes, yeah, like we didn't think of going to school anymore than we would have thought of going to church together. And it was an interesting take. They slept in each other's houses, in each other's beds and ate at each other's dinner table, but they never would have thought of going to school together. Isn't that interesting?

Laura Giles (01:29:48.344)
That's crazy.

Jack Moore (01:29:49.536)
Yeah, because if somebody's like, want us to go to school together. Well, my friend talked about the same thing. Who's nine years older. He said, there was a lot of emphasis put on us as kids be better than everybody else. And he felt like when the schools were integrated, you had a lot of teachers afraid to discipline kids for fear of being called a racist. Where he says, when I was in school and the black ladies who were dressed to the nines and had a yardstick and hit you upside the head.

They weren't afraid to be, they just like disciplined you. And he says, I think a lot has been lost in schools. It was an interesting take for a man to tell me, but then I thought about what this guy was saying. He's grown up in a world where they slept in each other's houses and did what they did yet. They're coming back from Vietnam and they're seeing all this dispute over integration of schools. They're like, what the hell's that about? Cause there was also the line of you.

It's not that I don't think they would have gone to each other's churches. It just wasn't done. And I mean, I remember that growing up where I grew up. I grew up in the counties, probably 50, 50 black, white, something in that, well, a of Native Americans too. But you didn't go to the other racist, it was another racist church. It's not that you weren't, it's not that you didn't feel well, you just didn't, you know what I'm saying? You just didn't do it. The churches were more associated with the families you grew up with, right?

You're looking at me strange, like you don't understand that. I think it's a phenomenon that comes up later. No, I just think that culturally in the sixties, there were still the culture was not only was there the integration of the schools issue, but they're just kind of culturally was there's black schools, there's white schools, there's black churches, there's white church churches. Now I am totally in agreement with Brown versus board. If they're going to publicly fund something.

Laura Giles (01:31:17.23)
I don't know.

Jack Moore (01:31:43.174)
Everybody has to have a right to go there now as far as the churches go knock yourself out go where you want This guy was just making the point that even though we grew up together and stayed in each other's houses aiding each other's dinner table We didn't ever think in terms of going to each other's churches or schools That's the only point I'm making because that's the world. That's a world. grew up in All right, so tie it all up for me. Tell me tell me how the world's fixed there

Laura Giles (01:32:02.775)
Yeah, got it.

Laura Giles (01:32:11.83)
I don't know how the world's fixed. I just hope that they take the name back.

Jack Moore (01:32:17.156)
You still want Redskins back and yeah.

Laura Giles (01:32:19.116)
do or Indians or Braves or something that reflects the Native American and I think the head should stay.

Jack Moore (01:32:28.412)
Well, see, that's one thing the U S senator from South Dakota actually brought up on the floor of the Senate. We never want the name back. It's offensive, but we want the symbol back. And then people like, what, you're to be commanders with an Indian head on the side of the helmet? I don't know. mean, it is a throwback helmet. There has been talk of warriors as nice ring to that Washington warriors. I would like Braves and bring all the other stuff back. And I tell you, it opens the lane too. You know how a lot of people.

who are fans of the Pittsburgh Pirates, they call them the Bucks, which is another term for a buccaneer, which is kind of, so I think what would happen is if you brought back Washington Braves, a lot of people seeing the symbol, they just say Redskins. They wouldn't think twice about continuing to say Redskins. And I do think that there's a certain amount of the offense in all that's worn off. And that is another key issue you might ask. If you're an a, if you're an,

an activist or an advocate for a group of people, what did you really gain from dumping the name? So let's say that Daniel Snyder bad character he may have been was pumping money into Indian causes. And you know, as well as I do, you pump money into people's causes. It ends up getting filtered out to a bunch of people that pad their pockets and 5 % of it actually makes it to the recipients. And you don't ever fund people out of bad situations. You might give them a leg up. might, you you build a boys and girls club.

You actually build a brick and mortar structure, put good people in it. Yes. Place for kids to go in the afternoon. That could have a positive effect, but let's face it. A lot of this funding stuff is people for tax purposes or just to look good in the community. They throw money at things and it never makes it to the, to the place that you want it to make. But we would say this. If you were a group of people, I'm offended, I'm offended. Fine. The name is gone. Then Daniel Snyder at that point didn't have to give the Indian causes at all. He didn't have to carry it all. And I'm.

pretty sure he probably cut off the spigot at that point. There was no more flow. would imagine. So what did you gain? Now might want to say, well, you're whoring yourself out to sit there and try to get money from Daniel Snyder simply so you can keep a name. Okay. That's, that's a legitimate point as well, but you do ask like, what's the end game? If you've, if you've got, if you've gone a fence enough to kill the name, what's left, but what are you going to get out of it? So

Laura Giles (01:34:32.003)
Yeah.

Jack Moore (01:34:52.183)
I would like to see the, the Native American Guardian Association model. Let's go back to the name. Let's go back to the symbolism and let's go ahead and fun causes to get the history of native Americans as they want it told or the whole picture out to the public.

Laura Giles (01:35:09.358)
I

Jack Moore (01:35:14.979)
guess it's at this point, we, end another show and, go ahead and give me some ideas on the light comment. We like likes and we like comments. Yeah. Yeah. And let's get this word out again. And, we're going to be doing some more shows coming up on, some issues involving sports for sure. And, you know, there'll always be history things, but we are going to be addressing, some more things on baseball and.

Laura Giles (01:35:24.46)
and shares and subscribes.

Jack Moore (01:35:44.439)
more things on race and culture. And we're going to have a gentleman on discussing black youth in baseball and what they're, what he has done as his family historically for a number of years. We look forward to that as well. Thank everyone for listening. Thank you, Laura. Bye bye.